JRiver Kickstarter for DRM with Ceton

[wingdam]

I don't understand why everyone hasn't backed JRiver on Kickstarter.
They are raising the money to add DRM playready to their existing MC software.
They support all the add on tuner cards now and just need the cash to licence the DRM part.
Go and pledge as they appear to be the only company making an effort.

You won't be charged unless they meet the goal.

Happy Thanksgiving.

[mdavej]

I agree. We should be supporting this.

Problem is the Silicon Dust kickstarter was first. So my money is already spoken for. But I do wish JRiver well and appreciate the effort.

[STC]

My provider is copy free but I require a multi room easy to use low maintenance solution for my family.

[Ed]

I'll be supporting this even though I'll never use it just in spite of SD and all the stuff they have pulled with/since their Kickstarter.

[STC]

^ didn't you go TiVo?

[Ed]

^ didn't you go TiVo?

Yes, hence why I said:

I'll be supporting this even though I'll never use it.....

[bob_p]

Because they are following SiliconDust's Kickstarter campaign - this is both a problem and an opportunity.

They are at a disadvantage because SD may have picked up many people who were willing to donate funds as a quick reaction to Microsoft's announcement of now WMC in Windows 10 - and even though SD sent out an e-mail update to their supporters yesterday, they still have yet to confirm they plan to deliver anything close to a WMC replacement. While I'm leaning towards also supporting JRiver, I'm looking at them more carefully than I joined the SD campaign - and I assumed, based on SD's past performance, that they would understand what their WMC customers wanted (which may not be true).

However, there is a significant opportunity for JRiver to do much better than SD in communicating their plans - and attracting potential supporters. While their website has a lot more information about their software than SD has provided for their project, it's pretty much impossible to easily determine how close the JMC environment (with DRM support) would be to what we've all had with WMC (for years). JRiver's opportunity would be to make a clear statement of exactly what they are trying to provide, roughly in what time frame, and to give a high-level feature-by-feature comparison between JMC and WMC. For example, what would we use as a fully functional replacement for the Xbox 360 WMC extenders? I've seen comments that recording management can't be done completely through the 10 foot interface, and may require using a mouse and a keyboard for some things (which is a deal killer). Beyond addition of the DRM support, are they planning to address any of the other deficiencies so that when they are done - WMC users can easily migrate to JMC for a "whole home DVR"?

I'm ready to place a 2nd bet - and also contribute to the JRiver campaign - but this time, I'd like to have a better understanding of what they intend to deliver AND if it's something I'd actually be able to use.

And I suspect others may feel the same way (in reading the SD forums).

[kd6icz]

Exactly bob_p! I would love to back one (or both) of these projects. However I would like to see the entire ecosystem they have planned. All the way down to a new remote control customized for that piece of software. Using mini PC's (like the Intel NUC or Gigabyte BRIX) would be perfect for extenders but a nice RF based remote control would be nice to accompany the software.

I traded all my Ceton tuners for PRIMES's simply because SD had the wheels turning for a WMC replacement. But I can't say what Littleton I've seen so far has impressed me. I will withhold final judgement when the final product is released.

[bob_p]

To attract a large enough audience to be successful, it's important that whatever JRiver (and SD) develop - that it be easy to use, and provide the functionality people expect. While RF remotes are interesting, what's probably better is to have as much compatibility as possible with the available consumer, programmable remotes - which may mean IR - and if they can use the same IR codes as WMC, that would allow people running WMC today to quickly shift to the new environments.

JRiver has a long way to go to meet their $100K goal - so far they only have $3,755.

I'm still looking for more information on how what they plan to deliver will compare to my current WMC environment - and if they will have something close enough to WMC capabilities (and hopefully better) to support the entire family - who are used to using WMC.

I suspect I'm not alone in wanting to see more information - relevant to how I would use JRiver - before making a commitment to their campaign.

[mdavej]

If JRiver happens to be reading this and entertaining the thought of selling their own remote and IR dongle, I'd advise against MCE (RC6) protocol as it is not royalty-free to use (at least not legally). NEC1 is royalty-free (AFAIK), and is used by many MCE style remotes like Diamond Media and several of the cheaper no-name Chinese remotes. The royalty is probably what motivated Ortek/Adesso to create their own protocol. It would probably be much cheaper over all to contract out the remote anyway so that all the development and manufacturing costs are borne by the contractor.

While I'd like to see JRiver and SD succeed, there is already an excellent ecosystem fully developed and available now. It's called Tivo. I don't think your average consumer is interested in buying and setting up PC servers and mini PC clients or dealing with maintaining such an infrastructure. Tivo is plug and play and cheaper than PC and mini PC based systems already.

Unfortunately, 3rd party DVRs are a tiny, tiny market segment to begin with. Even if JRiver and/or SD came up with a killer product, they would probably never make enough money to stay afloat, much less compete with Tivo.

[CoteRotie]

I backed the Jriver kickstarter in addition to Silicondust. I also downloaded the current Jriver Media Center which is free to try for 30 days. For me it seems to be a complete replacement for WMC. It works with my WMC remote (actually my Logitech Harmony programmed for WMC), plays all my media, works with both my cable card tuners AND I was able to get Netflix working with remote support within JR MC. (With a 3rd party application.) It's different from WMC- In some ways a lot better, in some ways a little more clunky.

My provider is copy free so right now JR MC is all I need, but should that change or if I want premium channels it would be great if they were able to implement PlayReady DRM.

[bob_p]

Unfortunately, 3rd party DVRs are a tiny, tiny market segment to begin with. Even if JRiver and/or SD came up with a killer product, they would probably never make enough money to stay afloat, much less compete with Tivo.

Even though the 3rd party DVR market (including WMC) is relatively small (compared to cable/satellite DVR or TiVo), it's still large enough for several companies to be successful enough to introduce multiple generations of PCI, USB and Ethernet TV tuners.

And, while Microsoft didn't believe the WMC market was large enough for them to justify continued investment - a "too small" market for Microsoft could be more than large enough for several much smaller companies to make a successful business.

JRiver and the TV tuner companies are relatively small companies - and as long as they can keep their development and support costs low enough, the market should be large enough to support them.

But there may be a limited window of opportunity for these companies. As current WMC users become increasingly concerned about how long they will be able to use WMC, there could be a growing number of those users looking to replace WMC - and if JRiver or SD (and where is Ceton?) don't have a clear replacement for WMC available - many of those users could jump over to the more traditional DVR solutions - and further reduce the market size.

For SD, their near term challenge is to get their first release out - and then we'll see how receptive they're going to be in addressing customer feedback and then implement the "WMC replacement" features they didn't include in the first release (like a program guide grid). For JRiver, they have a more established environment - and while adding DRM support gets them closer to WMC, their challenge may be in attracting the much larger community of WMC users who are looking for more of an "out of the box" solution, that has the features people use in WMC and is relatively easy to setup and configure.

After so many years to WMC being the primary option for a 3rd party DVR - and watching the product stagnate because Microsoft abandoned it after Windows 7, will be interesting to see what happens in the next few months with these new software products...

[kd6icz]

Just to add... TiVo is not the reliable DVR they once were. Many folks have issues with the Mini. I'm constantly at a couple different family members homes helping them keep their TiVo systems up and running.

[STC]

OT: New TiVo 'Pro' and Minis on the way in 2016. My plan is to try them.

[kd6icz]

OT: New TiVo 'Pro' and Minis on the way in 2016. My plan is to try them.

We'll see... I was a faithful TiVo customer for 10 years. I just needed more than they could offer. If they can bring a 12 tuner model with reliable Mini's and a monthly fee that isn't ridiculous then I might give them another try.

Something with 12TB or more would be welcomed as well.

[Ed]

My Roamio & Minis have been stable since I got them. I only had one issue on one of the Minis. I was getting the audio dropouts on 1 (out of 3 Minis) that people have reported. Did a factory reset on it and haven't had it or any other issues since.

My main Roamio unit just got a firmware update yesterday that added Quickplay and channel logos to the guide among other fixes (my Minis have had that for a few weeks now).

[mdavej]

OT: New TiVo 'Pro' and Minis on the way in 2016. My plan is to try them.

We'll see... I was a faithful TiVo customer for 10 years. I just needed more than they could offer. If they can bring a 12 tuner model with reliable Mini's and a monthly fee that isn't ridiculous then I might give them another try.

Something with 12TB or more would be welcomed as well.

My Minis have been rock solid too, far better than any extender I've ever had. Sounds like you may have network issues.

Can you not get 12 tuners if you buy 2 Roamio Pros? Is there any PC based 12 tuner unit in existence?

Can you not install any size hard drive you like?

As for ridiculous fees, I don't pay any fees for my Tivos. You don't have to pay any monthly fees if you don't want to.

Sounds like all your arguments are way over the top. Nothing in the WMC realm comes close to Tivo, and nothing in the real world meets all your requirements.

[Ed]

Yeah, I'm glad I got in on the Lifetime sale and don't have any monthly fees or had to pay the full Lifetime pricing.

I figure they won't have another one until either a) they still have way more Roamios they need to unload and get rid of b) in a couple of years when they're replacing the Bolt with a new model.

[kd6icz]

Is there any PC based 12 tuner unit in existence?

Are you serious? My last WMC setup had 18 tuners and 24TB. Pretty common WMC setup these days. Even FiOS offers a 12 tuner DVR now. So I don't think I'm asking too much.

[mdavej]

Is there any PC based 12 tuner unit in existence?

Are you serious? My last WMC setup had 18 tuners and 24TB. Pretty common WMC setup these days. Even FiOS offers a 12 tuner DVR now. So I don't think I'm asking too much.

Show me your 12 tuner unit and I'll eat my shorts. Even the Fios system consists of two 6-tuner units. Your system consists of several 3, 4 or 6 tuner units as well. Asking Tivo for a 12 tuner box is unreasonable.