JRiver Media Center Kickstarter for Copy Once Support

[tzr916]

If you all want to read about JR MC "Clients" (extenders):

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.p ... c=101763.0

[gsr]

I think the hardware they use stores a lot of the tv guide into the actual tuner (images etc..)? Something like that. I think they would want more people on it. We know a lot of Ceton users are very stubborn ( I mean loyal ) and will stick with WMC for as long as they can opposed to buying new hardware. (again I know I know many have supported the project etc.. that own Ceton tuners).

The SiliconDust tuners that are going to be supported by their DVR project store the channel list in the tuner, not the guide. Note that not all SiliconDust tuners will even be supported by their software - IIRC all of their CableCard tuners are supported, but only their newer OTA tuners. Their older tuner hardware won't be supported. I agree that they probably wouldn't mind getting the income from users using other tuners, but the approach they're taking requires specific hardware features.

[bob_p]

Some good points above...

I agree the primary reason why SD's DVR software won't work with Ceton is that Ceton is a competitor - and the primary reason for SD to invest in the DVR software is to have software that will use their tuners - and create a market to buy new SD CableCard tuners after WMC dies. So far, it's not clear what Ceton plans to do - or if they are going to give up on the consumer space completely when WMC goes away.

After the disappointments SD's Kickstarter supporters have had because of the lack of information on what they actually planned to deliver and the frustration that they are more interested in "reimagining" the DVR than to provide the features WMC users want (program guide grid), it's understandable that potential JRiver supporters are reluctant to bet on them, without seeing a more information on what JRiver plans to deliver.

It would be pretty easy for JRiver to make an official statement on extenders. If their goal is to support inexpensive Windows PCs as extenders, at least as a minimum goal - then say that - and provide a recommendation on what they believe the minimum configuration would be (i.e., like a PC-on-a-stick).

And, if there is functionality missing from their current 10 foot user interface (to manage recordings), then they could comment on their plans to add that, either now, or after the DRM functionality is added.

SD did confirm they plan to license their DVR engine to 3rd parties. And even if it required some changes to support, it may be less expensive and easier for JRiver to use SD's technology with DTCP than to license PlayReady. And, SD shouldn't view this as a competitive threat - especially if JRiver is closer to delivering the WMC replacement and SD wants to invest fewer resources to support their "reimagined" DVR.

Unfortunately, the way Kickstarter works - if they fail to achieve their $100K goal by 12/19, the campaign is cancelled and they have to start over. They've only added a handful of new supporters in the last day - and have only $5.8K committed - far, far short of their goal.

I would like to support their project - but they really haven't answered the basic questions "Can JRiver Media Center Replace Windows Media Center?" because WMC is more than just the ability to watch live and recorded TV with DRM content. And even if JRiver has a lot more functionality outside of TV programs in their Media Center, that's only relevant if they've hit the mark on providing the WMC functionality users want - which is full support of the recording and playback from the 10 foot user interface, and the same functionality on low cost "extenders" (which could be inexpensive PCs).

What JRiver should do is to revise their Kickstarter page and communicate to potential supporters specifically what they plan to deliver, and how it compares to the WMC functionality the user community expects to see in a "WMC" replacement.

For SD, to counter the growing frustration among their Kickstarter supporters, they could actually get provide some support to JRiver (since if JRiver succeeds, it will generate new sales of SD tuners, especially if JRiver uses SD's DVR technology) - a partnership with SD and JRiver that would end up with a WMC replacement is a win-win for both organizations - and for the WMC user community.

[gsr]

JRiver has said that they don't know yet if Copy Once support will be able to be extended to extenders or not - it's something they probably won't know until they've actually started work on the project.

Otherwise, their extender support is fairly well defined at this point as the minimum requirements for an extender are really the same requirements as for a JRiver server, minus the need for disk space to store your media. I don't believe the PC on a stick options that are available at this point are quite powerful enough yet - I'm pretty sure someone tried one out and it worked, but was sluggish. But small PC's, such as Intel NUC's, should be fine.

The functionality that's missing from their 10 foot user interface really is just some of the advanced recording options at this time. One of the features they added recently was the ability to create complex rules such as (Series = "Law & Order" OR Name = "Law & Order) AND (Keywords CONTAINS "Drama") - that sort of functionality isn't needed for most recordings, but one place where it comes in handy is setting up recordings for hockey games for your local team. I was able to create a rule with (Name CONTAINS "NHL Hockey" OR Series CONTAINS "NHL Hockey) AND (Description CONTAINS "Boston at" OR Description CONTAINS "at Boston"), which will catch NHL Hockey games only for the Boston Bruins. You can't yet edit those complex rules in the 10 foot user interface, but probably 99% of shows you would want to set a series recording up for won't need that functionality.

Another item that's missing from the 10 foot UI is the ability to edit the channels that will be used to match recordings, and I'd consider this a higher priority to get into the 10 foot UI as this is something I use for just about every series I record in both WMC and JRiver MC.

The good thing with JRiver is that they tend to be very responsive to suggestions, as long as you make a strong case for what you're requesting. It sometimes takes them a while to get to it, but they usually do. As we all know, while Microsoft came up with a fantastic solution overall, it was always next to impossible to get them to change it or fix bugs and it's obviously impossible now.

Regarding integrating SD's solution into JRiver, I just don't see it happening. JRiver has invested a lot of time into their existing recording engine and I don't see them going with a solution that works only with SD tuners as that would alienate a bunch of existing customers who own Ceton tuners, for example.

[STC]

Almost at 6% of goal with 11 days to go. Shame really.

[gsr]

Almost at 6% of goal with 11 days to go. Shame really.

Yeah. I honestly wasn't confident they would reach their $100k goal without some higher cost options for donating, but I thought they would get a lot closer than they have so far.

[tzr916]

JRiver has said that they don't know yet if Copy Once support will be able to be extended to extenders or not - it's something they probably won't know until they've actually started work on the project...

Ya this is beyond lame. Nobody wants a "one room" solution to the copy flag issue! Do they expect us to build a windows pc for every tv, then purchase the full version of MC and the TvPlus addon for every machine

[JimH]

JRiver has said that they don't know yet if Copy Once support will be able to be extended to extenders or not - it's something they probably won't know until they've actually started work on the project...

Ya this is beyond lame. Nobody wants a "one room" solution to the copy flag issue! Do they expect us to build a windows PC for every tv, then purchase the full version of MC and the TvPlus addon for every machine :what the heck:

No. We expect you to keep your money in your pocket until you're willing to bet we'll deliver. If that means you don't support our Kickstarter campaign, that's fine.

You can use a single license of JRiver Media Center on all "your" machines, within reason. Windows, Mac, and Linux are separate licenses, but you can buy a Master License that covers all three.

If I knew that we could exactly support an extender experience, I would say that, but, as you pointed out, I'm not certain. I would rather under promise and over deliver.

Jim Hillegass
JRiver

[tzr916]

...You can use a single license of JRiver Media Center on all "your" machines, within reason. Windows, Mac, and Linux are separate licenses, but you can buy a Master License that covers all three...

So how would that work exactly? Let's say you want copy protected channels on 5 tv's. If you run 5 "master" or server licenses of MC, how do they share the tuners for live tv? Normally you run one "master" and 4 clients, so won't there be some fighting over the tuners situation if you are running 5 copies of MC in server mode?

[gsr]

So how would that work exactly? Let's say you want copy protected channels on 5 tv's. If you run 5 "master" or server licenses of MC, how do they share the tuners for live tv? Normally you run one "master" and 4 clients, so won't there be some fighting over the tuners situation if you are running 5 copies of MC in server mode?

He never suggested running 5 servers. Run 1 install as the server and run the other 4 as clients. All using 1 license.

[tzr916]

So how would that work exactly? Let's say you want copy protected channels on 5 tv's. If you run 5 "master" or server licenses of MC, how do they share the tuners for live tv? Normally you run one "master" and 4 clients, so won't there be some fighting over the tuners situation if you are running 5 copies of MC in server mode?

He never suggested running 5 servers. Run 1 install as the server and run the other 4 as clients. All using 1 license.

Then only one tv gets to watch copy protected channels/content because (as of right now) clients will not be able to do copy protected channels. So what are they thinking if someone has 5 tv's? Each tv would have to be in server mode, err what?

[bob_p]

I understand the philosophy of under-promising and hopefully over-delivering - which is a considerable improvement over the SD DVR campaign which hasn't provided enough information to determine exactly what they are promising.

However, having the ability to watch live and recorded TV copy protected programs, shared among multiple TVs is a critical feature for many WMC users and if adding PlayReady to JMC only allows this to happen on a single system - requiring multiple, independent servers to be used throughout a home in order to provide a "whole home DVR" experience, that's probably a deal killer.

I want to support this campaign - and I suspect others would also support it - if we believed JRiver was at least going to try (even if you can't guarantee) something like WMC in a "whole home" environment - which means single server/multiple clients all accessing the same live & recorded TV content, and a 10 foot UI which provides capabilities to create & modify recording rules similar to WMC.

[gsr]

Then only one tv gets to watch copy protected channels/content because (as of right now) clients will not be able to do copy protected channels. So what are they thinking if someone has 5 tv's? Each tv would have to be in server mode, err what?

The ultimate goal is for all clients to be able to watch Copy Once content, but they can't PROMISE that at this point as they don't know exactly what limitations they're going to run into in implementing PlayReady. I think it's obvious to all of us that having to run 5 systems as independent servers isn't exactly ideal.

Would you rather they promise that all clients will be able to watch Copy Once content and then not be able to deliver on that promise after taking money from you and you potentially spending a bunch of money for a server and 4 clients? Personally, I'd rather have them say what they're saying and be honest about things up front and then hopefully be able to extend Copy Once content to all (or at least some) clients. One possible outcome is that only Windows based clients would be able to watch Copy Once content from a server. So before committing yourself to spending a bunch of money on clients that may or may not be able to view Copy Once content, wait and see what they deliver - that won't cost you a dime.

For me, I'm already a longtime JRiver MC user, so I pledged $40 (double) for just the TV Plus product. $40 isn't going to exactly crush my finances. And I don't really need support for Copy Once content because Verizon FIOS doesn't mark anything I care about watching as Copy Once.

[tzr916]

...For me, I'm already a longtime JRiver MC user, so I pledged $40 (double) for just the TV Plus product. $40 isn't going to exactly crush my finances. And I don't really need support for Copy Once content because Verizon FIOS doesn't mark anything I care about watching as Copy Once.

I pledged $70 on Nov 22 (post#6). I only need copy once support for HBO, SHO, etc.... But JRMC already has the Server/Client architecture in place, so it's very um strange how they could plan and setup a goal of copy once without thinking about whether Clients will work or not. It at least should have been mentioned as a stretch goal. More people would have been pulled in.

I am a long time lurking JR fan, have downloaded trials of MC in the past and been impressed with the UI, but never built a separate rig or tried their tuner support. At this point I sure would like to do it.

Does anyone know if I can expose just ONE tuner to JRMC without re-running tv setup in WMC? for example only tuner 3 of my HDHRP which never gets used by WMC?

Does anyone know if I tell JRMC to record to a networked drive, does the stream have to run through the machine running the Server Copy? Or does the stream go directly from the tuner to the network drive?

[gsr]

I pledged $70 on Nov 22 (post#6). I only need copy once support for HBO, SHO, etc.... But JRMC already has the Server/Client architecture in place, so it's very um strange how they could plan and setup a goal of copy once without thinking about whether Clients will work or not. It at least should have been mentioned as a stretch goal. More people would have been pulled in.

Once again, they do want to support clients, but won't know if it can be done until they make some amount of progress on the project, and that progress probably won't happen if the Kickstarter doesn't get funded, unless they decide to proceed with it anyway. I honestly don't think the JRiver guys are as stupid as you guys are giving them credit for. They really do understand that supporting Copy Once on clients is important. But it would be flat out foolish of them to promise that support and then be unable to deliver on the promise. I suppose including it as a stretch goal could make some sense, but then people would just be bitching that it should be one of the primary goals.

It's funny. SD seems to have overpromised and is justifiably getting called out on it. JRiver is trying to be as honest as possible and people are bitching about that. There's clearly no way to satisfy people these days.

I am a long time lurking JR fan, have downloaded trials of MC in the past and been impressed with the UI, but never built a separate rig or tried their tuner support. At this point I sure would like to do it.

Does anyone know if I can expose just ONE tuner to JRMC without re-running tv setup in WMC? for example only tuner 3 of my HDHRP which never gets used by WMC?

Does anyone know if I tell JRMC to record to a networked drive, does the stream have to run through the machine running the Server Copy? Or does the stream go directly from the tuner to the network drive?

What I've done is setup my tuners in WMC in order 1-1, 1-2, 1-3, 2-1, 2-2, 2-3, 3-1, 3-2, 3-3 (I have 3 HDHomeRun Primes) and set the priorities up in reverse order on JRiver MC. So until all tuners are in use, no conflict will occur. If you only want to give JRMC access to one tuner, you can enable only 1 tuner when you set it up (you can also go back in later and easily enable the other tuners without having to go through the entire setup procedure again, unlike in WMC).

[TheFeelsNinja]

I have been playing around in JRiver MC trial for a few days now, and I am very impressed with its speed and over all Theatre UI. noticed something interesting too, I upgraded to a 4K tv this week and when I loaded up JR MC, the guide data scaled for the new resolution and showed quite a bit more detail. Opening WMC gave me a warning that it may not be stable at higher monitor resolutions (it is stable though).
I have Cablevision's Optimum service, and didn't realize how many of the channels I watch are copy once protected until I started browsing with JR. I really hope they get this DRM support. If they don't get there, my only other option is hoping SD can get their act together, or I may just have to get a provider DVR....I really don't want the latter, but with WMC's current guide data issues, I may have to do it...

[bob_p]

A major concern among SD's Kickstarter supporters is that many assumed SD was planning to provide a replacement for WMC - and months after receiving the first "progress build", it still isn't clear what they are trying to do. Indications are they plan to deliver a "reimagined" DVR with DRM support - which may not include features many WMC users want to see, such as a program guide grid. But we really don't know, because they have not provided enough information to know what they are trying to deliver (other than the ability to watch live and recorded programs, including with DRM).

I suspect there would be stronger support for JRiver if they would at least indicate they will TRY to deliver a WMC replacement - full 10 foot user interface (with a program guide grid) and clients with functionality comparable to WMC extenders. If they try and fail, I'd be fine with that. If they would indicate what they are planning to do - and how it compares to WMC, that would be more information than SD has yet provided - and might be enough to encourage more people to take a chance with JRiver and support their campaign.

Unless they make a significant change in how they are approaching selling of their campaign, they probably won't be able to close the gap between the $6900 committed so far and their $100K goal - in the next 9 days.

[gsr]

A major concern among SD's Kickstarter supporters is that many assumed SD was planning to provide a replacement for WMC - and months after receiving the first "progress build", it still isn't clear what they are trying to do. Indications are they plan to deliver a "reimagined" DVR with DRM support - which may not include features many WMC users want to see, such as a program guide grid. But we really don't know, because they have not provided enough information to know what they are trying to deliver (other than the ability to watch live and recorded programs, including with DRM).

I suspect there would be stronger support for JRiver if they would at least indicate they will TRY to deliver a WMC replacement - full 10 foot user interface (with a program guide grid) and clients with functionality comparable to WMC extenders. If they try and fail, I'd be fine with that. If they would indicate what they are planning to do - and how it compares to WMC, that would be more information than SD has yet provided - and might be enough to encourage more people to take a chance with JRiver and support their campaign.

Unless they make a significant change in how they are approaching selling of their campaign, they probably won't be able to close the gap between the $6900 committed so far and their $100K goal - in the next 9 days.

The only piece that JRiver is really missing to be able to replace WMC is Copy Once support for both the server and clients. As has been said already, they hope to be able to support Copy Once on clients, but won't know if it can be done until they make some progress. The pieces that are currently missing from the 10' UI really aren't significant enough to worry about in this discussion and are things I am very confident they'll get to sooner or later. And again, if the uncertainly of Copy Once support for clients is a showstopper (and I can certainly understand why), then don't support the Kickstarter.

[bob_p]

gsr, does the 10 foot UI provide functionality comparable to WMC for watching live/recorded TV (including DRM), browsing/searching the program guide, and setting/managing recordings (running on a shared server) - and provide this functionality on both the "server" and "client" devices?

So far, JRiver hasn't provide a clear statement that is what they are or intend to provide, and it isn't clear what they would recommend as the low cost "client" devices.

While others have made positive comments on JRiver, those comments have been inconsistent as to whether or not JRiver would actually replace WMC, or only provide a subset (for example, having to drop back to a mouse & keyboard or going back to the server to do some of the management of recording rules).

If JRiver could clearly state what they intend to deliver (of course there's risk, and they might fail - which is OK) - and how that would compare to the "whole home DVR" environment people have had for years with WMC, I think they would do much better on their campaign.

Part of the reason why SD's in trouble with expectations on their project is that they posted a link to a 3rd party reviewer's video - that specifically stated that he thought their DVR software would be the WMC replacement he would use - and would give to his family members. SD never stated they were planning to provide a WMC replacement - but the video and the associated text on YouTube's website clearly give the impression it was to be a WMC replacement - and it's pretty clear now - that was never SD's intention (at least with the program guide grid).

[gsr]

gsr, does the 10 foot UI provide functionality comparable to WMC for watching live/recorded TV (including DRM), browsing/searching the program guide, and setting/managing recordings (running on a shared server) - and provide this functionality on both the "server" and "client" devices?

So far, JRiver hasn't provide a clear statement that is what they are or intend to provide, and it isn't clear what they would recommend as the low cost "client" devices.

While others have made positive comments on JRiver, those comments have been inconsistent as to whether or not JRiver would actually replace WMC, or only provide a subset (for example, having to drop back to a mouse & keyboard or going back to the server to do some of the management of recording rules).

If JRiver could clearly state what they intend to deliver (of course there's risk, and they might fail - which is OK) - and how that would compare to the "whole home DVR" environment people have had for years with WMC, I think they would do much better on their campaign.

The ONLY thing the Kickstarter is for is to add Copy Once support to the existing JRiver MC solution. Everything else is already part of the standard JRiver MC package which means it would be pretty easy for you and others to download and try it out for 30 days as long as you have a tuner you can allow JRiver access to that has content that isn't flagged as Copy Once (if your cable TV provider marks everything as Copy Once, perhaps you have an OTA tuner kicking around?). I honestly think that will answer your questions better than I can.

JRiver has had a browseable / searchable guide for a while now. And they've had fairly complete functionality for scheduling recordings for a while now, which recently received a huge boost that makes it capable of replacing WMC at this point, minus the lack of Copy Once support.

Is there NEVER a need to drop out of the 10 foot UI to do some things? No, not yet, but it isn't too far off at this point and the cases are pretty much isolated to initial TV setup and a few of the more advanced options in recording management (which you generally don't need to touch). I haven't used TV on JRiver clients as my situation doesn't require clients, but AFAIK you can do everything on a client that you can do on the main JRiver server, the exception being that the JRemote app for iOS has very limited TV related functionality at this point - I would assume that the Android version of JRemote has the same limitations. As I've said before, the odds of Copy Once content being supported on clients are probably best if you restrict client choices to Windows options, but don't commit yourself to buying any clients until JRiver has indicated what will work and what won't, which they aren't going to be able to do until they've started some of the work on the Copy Once support.