Silicondust DVR Kickstarter

[Ed]

You seem to be saying, or conveying, that with what that have shown and explained, you will be fine with using. I have no problem with that man. No clue why you might think I would. And if that's not the case, also fine. I honestly just don't care one way or the other. Just saying whatever I think or have to say about it should have no way of effecting you enjoying it if you're OK or even just could/might be OK with things as is/explained/shown.

You can only take opinions of those voicing opinions. Those not voicing opinions could also be 100% against it for all you know; or 100% for it. So that's why; you don't know, so it doesn't get factored into the equation. Like I said dude, you're just gonna have to agree to disagree here. You won't convince me and I don't care about trying to convince you. So we just have to agree to disagree.

And if they gave me a reason to believe their DVR ruined a show I wanted to like (that's what you were getting at, right? ), you best believe I'd at least put it out there to make my opinion known. We can agree on that at least I assume

[blushrts]

I backed the project at the $60 level. SD was asked a simple yes/no question about a grid guide interface. It was the top post on their forum for a couple of weeks. Just sat there and was ignored. That's why I gave up. I gave up not because of what the answer was (it's pretty clear they are going a different direction), but because they couldn't even comment. It's a critical question on how their software is going to work.

How do I find a program via their search if I don't know it exists? No one has ever stumbled across a program looking at the guide and thought "that looks good, I'll record it". I routinely pull up Palladia and look at it's listings for the next two weeks to see what concerts they are showing.

[Ed]

I backed the project at the $60 level. SD was asked a simple yes/no question about a grid guide interface. It was the top post on their forum for a couple of weeks. Just sat there and was ignored. That's why I gave up. I gave up not because of what the answer was (it's pretty clear they are going a different direction), but because they couldn't even comment. It's a critical question on how their software is going to work.

How do I find a program via their search if I don't know it exists? No one has ever stumbled across a program looking at the guide and thought "that looks good, I'll record it". I routinely pull up Palladia and look at it's listings for the next two weeks to see what concerts they are showing.

And he was constantly popping in and out of the thread to delete things he just didn't want people to see, and delete the people reposting the removed posts he was trying to keep unseen too if you remember; all the while avoiding posting even just a 'no comment' to put the thread to rest.

That thread really was the "Oh crap they're really gonna screw this thing up aren't they?" moment.

[bob_p]

The current guide/show view in the progress build is useful - in certain circumstances. This type of guide is present in WMC for movies (the Movie Guide) and in the X1 DVR (which I'm testing in parallel with the SD DVR software). The WMC movie guide (until it was broken by the recent EPG switch) can be pretty useful - because WMC has filters that can be easily applied for things like HD-only or Release Date (to see the newest movies). When I'm trying to find what new movies have been added so I can record them, that style is very useful (until Microsoft broke it a few weeks ago...).

However, a grid program guide is also useful - and, from my experience, is typically used more often to find what's playing now and will be playing shortly. While there may be hundreds of channels on the cable - most of them are still SD, which I'm typically not interested in watching. Many of them have reality, shopping, news or other types of programs - so weeding through the channels to find TV shows and movies can be challenging, though it is possible in WMC to disable channels and set up a favorite channels list, plus the cable companies typically group similar channels together (Comcast in our area has all of the premium movie channels in the 400 block and the typical HD cable channels in the 600-750 block).

Should the SD DVR software have the type of program guide in the progress build - absolutely, as long as they provide customization to filter out the programs that would not be of interest (such as HD-only, release date, first run, sports, movies, ...). Scrolling through screenfuls of 6 programs with large pictures is not very useful - especially when there may be hundreds of programs to skip through!

Should the SD DVR software have a grid program guide - absolutely. The cable STB grid guides don't have any customization, which make them less useful than the WMC grid - which can be customized. If SD isn't considering a grid program guide, then they need to seriously reconsider that decision - because without the grid guide, I'm pretty sure we won't be using the SD DVR software - and we'll stay on WMC until it drops dead - and then be forced to switch to Comcast's X1 or a TiVo.

SD's CableCard tuner customers are most likely WMC users - who are comfortable with the capabilities of WMC and would have preferred Microsoft port the old version of WMC to Windows 10 than to switch to something else (come on Microsoft - if you aren't going to release WMC in Windows 10 - can't you make it "open source"???). And, we have family members who are also comfortable with Microsoft's "10 foot" user interface. That should be SD's starting point - taking the portions of WMC functionality that SD's customers are using - and implement that in the SD DVR product.

SD should do more to inform their Kickstarter supporters of what is planned for the DVR product. While there is some indication of what platforms will be supported, there is very little information as to the specific functionality that will be present.

I've been a long-time customer of SiliconDust - purchasing multiple generations of their CableCard tuners - and currently have 3 HDHR Primes (2 are being used by WMC and 1 was purchased through Kickstarter for the SD DVR testing) - and by participating in the Kickstarter program, I'm showing my support for SD and hope they are on the path to provide a replacement for WMC, that will have full vendor support, and run on a broader range of devices.

[IownFIVEechos]

We should all remember that these two companies (Ceton and SD) are mainly hardware companies. When they go and try and do software things seem to typically go bad. I am not judging the SD software yet until it is final; but that being said they have totally upset me with not producing the six-transcoding tuner. I remember seeing the announcement years back; even seeing the prototypes and thinking this is going to be great! Just like the Echo debacle; SD is setting themselves up to be viewed the same way . Hopefully they pull it together. It makes sense they had to try some software because if they don't then the whole Media Center run off a PC goes extinct. And then no one will buy the hardware etc.. But the only difference this time is SD took peoples money opposed to Ceton who just strung us along. Also it is sad to see Ed so upset because he was the first to really promote this product. Hope he gets what he wants because his wants are what every one here needs (regardless if they know it or not). Thanks Ed for voicing your opinion! KEEP MEDIA CENTER ALIVE!

[blushrts]

SD should do more to inform their Kickstarter supporters of what is planned for the DVR product. While there is some indication of what platforms will be supported, there is very little information as to the specific functionality that will be present.

This is the crux of the issue. They were backed to the tune of $300000, they could communicate a little. I was involved in a baseball camp this summer, and the guy running it just said we would "just play it by ear" at the sessions. I told him people paid money, we had to have a plan, communicate, and be organized.

They didn't say no to the guide question because they knew they would lose testers.

And before someone comes in here to chime in that we aren't giving it a chance, no grid guide no go in my household. Your 2 cents doesn't matter to what my household does.

[IownFIVEechos]

No grid data no go = Stay on media center till it dies = TiVo

[blushrts]

No grid data no go = Stay on media center till it dies = TiVo

I jumped on a $50 refurb Tivo roamio, threw a 3 gig hard drive in it, and installed Plex for my media. Tivo mini on 2nd tv. I have everything important from my media center machine. Actually a little more, since I couldn't watch all of my media before on my xbox.

[poit57]

I am only a $30 backer, so I haven't been able to test the HDHR DVR yet, but I think what Nick said makes a lot of sense.

I rarely just "stumble upon" a show in the grid guide in WMC that I find interesting enough to start recording the series. I usually have specific shows in mind that I want to add to my recording schedule (through reading synospes online about upcoming premieres or seeing TV ads). In those cases, I always use the search function in WMC to find the show (especially useful when I'm not sure which network is carrying said show). I also use Ceton's My Media Center app on my phone which has the ability to filter out season/series premieres, which I find useful in scheduling new recorings. I wish WMC had this feature built in.



Almost the only time I use the grid guide are to find live and near-live programs. Occasionally, it is when I am not watching a recording and just looking for something to keep me entertained for a while. Mostly, it is to check the guests on late night talk shows to see if I'm interested in watching that night, but this hasn't worked since the new Rovi guide only shows a generic description of each late night show.

As to Ed's point about first airings in a different country, I have watched several Syfy shows that originally aired in Canada and are marked as repeats in WMC. I usually set all series to record new episodes only, but these specific series, I have to set to record the new and reruns, which sometimes clogs up my DVR as it records marathons of previous seasons as well. I don't see how the grid-style guide would improve this situation.


I don't know if my use is typical of a DVR user, but the reasoning Nick gave for their design decision describes my use fairly well. I just don't imagine a large percentage of people regularly scans through their guide looking for any old series that might interest them.

[IownFIVEechos]

All I do is Guide Surf. People with Kids benefit greatly. At least I do.

[Beerman]

While I can live with what's being tested now, it's not what I want nor like. It's certainly not something first time users of DVR software can use efficiently.
I guess they figure that in the long run, we'll get use to it and forget about it but with TV viewers cutting chords and all the companies coming out with apps, in 5-10 years we'll all be getting 100% of our content online and most live events will be few and far between.

[IownFIVEechos]

The good news is that SD knows people want the Guide. No one has said they do not want the guide. Lets see how they react with the final product. Just happy to see SD getting involved with us common folks.

[blushrts]

While I can live with what's being tested now, it's not what I want nor like. It's certainly not something first time users of DVR software can use efficiently.
I guess they figure that in the long run, we'll get use to it and forget about it but with TV viewers cutting chords and all the companies coming out with apps, in 5-10 years we'll all be getting 100% of our content online and most live events will be few and far between.

I don't see live sports going away though.

[Ed]

Was it here, on the SD forums or AVS where someone mentioned their girlfriend/wife took one look at the SD DVR picture guide and asked "Good Lord! Is that supposed to be a DVR or Pinterest?"

I can't find it now, so it must have been over on the SD forums and Nick got mad and deleted it, lol. I know for a fact I saw it at one of these places.

Makes you wonder if the majority of those who say they're cool with the picture guide live alone; or if they have wives/husbands/girlfriends/boyfriends and/or children that will be expected to use this as well.

Seems to me they designed this thing from the get-go as something for like individual Kodi users to grab a keyboard, search, and fill up a NAS with masses and masses of never to be deleted archived recordings to then display in Kodi's native interface or via the SD plug-in if stuck with copy-once; as some users here are even known to similarly do. I think when everyone thought they meant they were developing a typical/run of the mill DVR software, and was giving them money hand over fist, SD knew damn well what people were expecting, but weren't going to inform or correct or clarify for them on what to expect. Not when they had their hands out. And now they have the money, so just stick to the original plan is their game. Oh well, we all get burned sometimes, right?

[greenvalor7]

I'm one of the many silent $60 backers from kickstarter that has been lurking on SiliconDust's forum. I'd just like to add that their is no way this will be a whole house solution for my family without a grid guide. My wife for sure won't use it and if I was to implement it my mother who watches my son would be better off trying to learn Mandarin than trying to find what she wants to watch. Also honestly I'd like a grid guide as well with the other options being a bonus. I would have put this comment on SiliconDust's forum but apparently the discussion about features of the DVR and kickstarter are happening here where replies from devs actually happen....

[IownFIVEechos]

Hopefully the "Meet and Greet" Pledge is aware of this NO GRID situation. As it is this information is 'hard to swallow'; but could you imagine having to eat a meal moments after you find this out.

[Ed]

Hopefully the "Meet and Greet" Pledge is aware of this NO GRID situation. As it is this information is 'hard to swallow'; but could you imagine having to eat a meal moments after you find this out.

And hopefully they remember to explain the always online/what if their server crashes thing to him (or her) while they're there too. But yeah, I'd hate to be that guy. Then again, you donate that much to just a kickstarter, even just literally burning the same amount of money isn't hurting you. Most likely. If you're not extremely haphazard with your savings.

[Ed]

As to Ed's point about first airings in a different country, I have watched several Syfy shows that originally aired in Canada and are marked as repeats in WMC. I usually set all series to record new episodes only, but these specific series, I have to set to record the new and reruns, which sometimes clogs up my DVR as it records marathons of previous seasons as well. I don't see how the grid-style guide would improve this situation..

Because with a typical grid epg it will at least still show up for you to tell it to record them as repeats even when they're technically not. With SD's picture guide it won't show up in their 'Show/picture/series/set-it-and-forget-it/whatever guide'. Ever. Unless you happen to be in the 'on live' or 'almost live' guides at the same time the show is. So if you wanna make sure you never miss anything you might want to record, at the fault of the SD's 'guide' and not yourself for just not seeing it, you need to monitor your 'on live' and 'almost live' guides 24/7; and juggle/switch between at least 3 different guide interfaces for your DVR instead of just one.

[SmoothG]

Another $30 backer here who has been a bit frustrated with the lack of info from SD. I'm not ready to call this a Ceton Echo situation until we see an actual release. Even if the release is delayed due to the extended time some of the testing/fixes/features seem to be taking, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt just based on the solid products they've released previously. IIRC, some of these missed initial deadlines as well. I can tolerate the slippage as long as the product works well in the end (not that I want slippage...or shrinkage)

RE GUIDE: While I am open to a new way of doing things in regards to DVR usability, I do think some kind of grid view is at the very least a good bridge. In WMC, I don't really use the grid view that much except to quickly find a live sports game or occasionally to browse through a specific channel to see what is on to record (i.e. movies from FX, HBO, etc.)...I'd say twice a week. I may not be the "norm" however. Maybe once I use this DVR, I won't care about the grid view at all but that remains to be seen. I think SD should at least take heed to all of the talk about it from users that are actually testing the product though....something it sounds like they are aware of but just focusing on the "set it and forget it" crowd up front. Ultimately, if they don't take the user feedback seriously the product is likely to fail.

Also bit of advice for the SD folks...you should post a regular "State of the Project" message at your forum to give an overview of where you are, what the challenges are, etc. Having some transparency would go a long way with your backers and folks that are otherwise ready to give you money for a viable WMC replacement. Silence just breeds discontent.

[poit57]

As to Ed's point about first airings in a different country, I have watched several Syfy shows that originally aired in Canada and are marked as repeats in WMC. I usually set all series to record new episodes only, but these specific series, I have to set to record the new and reruns, which sometimes clogs up my DVR as it records marathons of previous seasons as well. I don't see how the grid-style guide would improve this situation..

Because with a typical grid epg it will at least still show up for you to tell it to record them as repeats even when they're technically not. With SD's picture guide it won't show up in their 'Show/picture/series/set-it-and-forget-it/whatever guide'. Ever. Unless you happen to be in the 'on live' or 'almost live' guides at the same time the show is. So if you wanna make sure you never miss anything you might want to record, at the fault of the SD's 'guide' and not yourself for just not seeing it, you need to monitor your 'on live' and 'almost live' guides 24/7; and juggle/switch between at least 3 different guide interfaces for your DVR instead of just one.

Okay, I understand where you were coming from now, but again, that is not an issue that I would ever run into. In WMC now, I wouldn't scan through 2 weeks of Syfy's schedule in the guide to find one of these affected series. Instead, I go to the option from the Recorded TV section to add a recording, then I search by title. My understanding is that a title search still exists in the HDHR DVR, but again, I haven't seen the software in person yet.

As for the existence of a grid guide, I'm not saying it isn't useful in some situations, but for my usage of a DVR, it is not necessary - as long as I have some way to see what is on now or in the near future. Nick indicated that they are overhauling the current implementation of this live and near-live guide, so I am sitting back and waiting on what that final version will be before I decide if I can use it.