All tuners are busy - Layout advice needed

[Billyray520]

After about a month or so of pretty trouble free viewing/recording, I am starting to get errors like "all tuners are busy" even suddenly while I'm watching TV on one of them, and no one else is using any of the others, even for recording. I have the Ceton InfiniTV ETH 6 and the Cisco Cable Card and SDV-TA. I also have the Motorola Surfboard SBG6580 cable modem. This is a very simple setup. The connections shown are all in my basement office (where it is pretty cool) One TV in the Living room has 5 of the tuners assigned which is connected through an ActionTek MoCA device to a HTPC, and my desktop PC in my basement office has 1 tuner assigned. There are NO extenders. The 27" TV in the basement is just for Clear QAM. Here is my current configuration:

Here are my readings:

Any suggestions or comments? I may have this set up wrong. \

Can anyone explain why tuner 4 is "playing" even though the no one is watching or nothing is recording? Is that normal?

[mdavej]

Have you tried not assigning any tuners and just make them dynamic? Ceton is so slow to tune, it often goes through a couple of tuners before it locks in. If it runs into one that can't be used at all, it may choke.

[Billyray520]

I noticed that my modem/router is showing a signal strength of about -1dbmv or so on the 8 carrier channels. But my signal on the Ceton is currently averaging about -6 dbmv. I removed the TWC splitter that goes to the old 27" Zenith TV, which helped my signal strength increase about 1-2 dbmv generally. So I am wondering if there is also loss because I have the Ceton connected to the SDV TA adapter (as they instruct) So will it help me more, if I put in a 4 way splitter (in place of the three way splitter) and attach the Ceton tuner there instead??

I also added a 140mm fan to the top of the Ceton tuner which got the temps down from the mid 50's to the mid 20's. Since doing this stuff, I have been getting more dependable recording and watching from the Ceton tuner.

[JohnW248]

You don't specify you headend system or cableCARD and Tuning Adapter. If you're on a Cisco system with the 1520, then a loop through has an amp built in and builds the signal up. However if you're on a Moto system and do the same thing, their TA (at least when I was researching a couple of years ago) cost you 6dBmV in signal level going to the tuner.

Personally I'd like to see the TA and ETH get a signal from a splitter, your signal levels are a bit on the low side with a recommendation of +/- 7dBmV with 0 dbmV being ideal. That's for TV your cable modem might work with a wider range if its a TWC supplied unit.

TWC here supplies amps free of charge and maybe a better set-up would be a single drop to a two way splitter with one going to the modem and then the second going to an amp to feed the balance of tvs and ETH/TAs. Heat shouldn't be an issue unless you're topping at 70 degrees C. Never seen a unit running in the mid 20 degrees C, but 40-50 range should be ok...

[Billyray520]

Thanks for the help John! I have the Cisco STA1520 SDV TA and the Cisco cable card, both supplied by TWC. I'm glad to hear that it has a built in amp, so I probably already have the best setup.

Signal wise, I am getting from -6 dbmv to +2 dbmv, with most channels getting somewhere in between. I have posted another pic of the current readings with the one splitter removed.

Temps were running about 54 C on all tuners, and that is with an ambient temp of low 60's F. in the basement now. With the added fan, I have the temps down quite a bit. more pics:

New signal readings:



This is the new temp readings:



This is the new layout (with one splitter removed, which used to go to the old 27" tv)



This is the physical setup of the Ceton tuner with the 140mm fan which uses double sided tape on the 4 corners to hold on:



The fan has it's own little in-line on/off button. It was a spare left over from my HTPC build.

[Crash2009]

I think this is what John was talking about when he said....."Personally I'd like to see the TA and ETH get a signal from a splitter"

Eric (Erkotz) from Ceton has said in the past that we need to have a MoCa filter before the tuner. I am not 100% sure it should be before the splitter, but it looks like a good place to me. Probably wont hurt anything to keep MoCa out of the TA as well. http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/vie ... 392#p82392

Get a package of RF Terminator Caps. Put one on the Cable OUT of the STA 1520. Terminator Caps are a good idea for all unused coax ports to prevents leaks.

You can do your own signal survey without the testing devices from the Cable Company. Just get a long piece of coax-attach it to the POE Filter in my picture, then plug it in to any splitter you want to test in your diagram. Read the results through Ceton Signals like you did before. After you do the survey and post the results on your diagram, somebody will be able to tell if you need an amp, and if so what strength.

[Billyray520]

Thanks for the suggestions Crash! I might try adding a MoCA filter to the input of the SDV-TA According to John, the STA1520 TA has a built in amp for the output that goes to the Ceton Tuner, so I'm thinking I won't gain anything by changing my cabling configuration. I would have to go from a 3 way splitter to a 4 way splitter, which I think would add even more loss to the input of the Ceton, than just leaving it where it is. But that is just a guess on my part. Actually, since I removed the one 2 way splitter, the signal strength has been dependable for recording and watching.

I had to add the one MoCA filter to the front of the Motorola SBG 6580 CMRG because it was throwing tons of error messages and often rebooting. Since the filter was added, all is quiet again in the error log. I have another MoCA filter I can add in front of the SDV-TA (which also has the Ceton tuner connected.)

[Crash2009]

You need to do more reading. There are a lot of guys here that hook them up like the picture I drew for you. What do you need.....same suggestion 10 times before you try it? You don't need a different splitter. Use the same 1 line that goes to your TWC SDV box.....Then POE and split it, 1 side to the TA, the other to the eth6. If this was bad advice there would have been 10 guys stomping all over me by now.

I doubt that any of this will solve the problem of the title of your post though. For that we need to see the devices that are all watching TV at the same time, and how they connect to the router or switch or whatever you have. If you have a look at the System Requirements of the ETH6 you will notice that the ETH and the HTPC require a 1 Gbps connection, and normally they are both plugged into the same 1 Gbps switch. From what you said so far the tuner is plugged into a Gig Router, the HTPC is plugged into a 10/100 moca device, The POE's are not installed properly, it's no wonder it wont work right.

[Crash2009]

Sorry for being so blunt in the last post. Here is what I would call the greatest ETH 6 post ever. Why you need the HTPC and ETH 6 plugged into the same switch. And not just any switch, something a bit better than half decent. Netgear Pro-safe come to mind as a minimum.
http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/vie ... lit=switch

Here is another ETH 6 and our struggle with MoCa. Somewhere in there there is some math that calculates how many Mbps the tuner and Htpc are transmitting when you have all 6 playing recording etc. It's huge. Too much for a 10/100 connection
http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/vie ... 300#p81300

Here is the math
http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/vie ... 300#p81300


Try this....

Forget about MoCa for a minute.

1- wire the ETH6 and the TA like the picture I drew for you.
2- plug both the ETH6's and HTPC's Ethernet wire into the Surfboard.

Its either an ethernet switch or some Gig MoCa devices. I believe this is the only way. Maybe this statement will trigger someone to say I am wrong. Or at least not quite right.

[Billyray520]

Thanks Crash for all of the great tips. I should mention that I have not had any problems since I did two things:
1. I put the fan on the Ceton InfiniTV ETH6 getting the temps down from mid 50's to high 20's
2. I removed one splitter from the cable configuration.

These two changes have given me plenty of signal, and I have not had any more problems with "tuners being busy." I would also like to defend the Actiontek MoCA adapters as being up to 270 Mbs and not 10/100. So far It has been able to handle 4 shows being recorded at once. The main TV/HTPC only has 5 tuners assigned anyway. But I did check out your links, and if anything, it made me feel better about my setup.

As much as I would LIKE to follow your plan, I can't. You saw the picture of the mess I have in front of my desk in the basement office where my cable modem is. (And it must stay there, because I have several other ethernet connections going to it from the home network, and I have no desire to move this mess up to the living room anyway.) So I have to use the MoCA adapter to connect to the Ceton. I know it may be a bottleneck, but so far it has been ok. Once in a while while recording multiple shows simultaneously -meaning once or twice in an hour long show- there will be a hesitation in the picture that lasts for a second. Maybe that is due to the MoCA bottleneck, or maybe something else. I don't think it can be the HTPC, since I built a pretty powerful one. But otherwise, if things stay the way they are now, the Mrs. and myself will be very happy!

[signcarver]

Most likely the network port on the MoCA adapter is 10/100 so you are limited to that speed (some multiport adapters might allow 3 ports to "bond" and try to use the full 270 but most don't as the internal connection is just another 10/100 port). The 270MB is available bandwidth on the coax, similar to how 10/100 (non-hub) devices are 200Mbps as they allow 100Mb each direction simultaneously. With MoCA that 270 is also "shared" somewhat with the other adapters, with just 2 you should be able to maintain a 100Mbps connection in each direction though in computations I never like to exceed 70%, when you consistently need that level it it time to upgrade so in my opinion 4-5 streams should be OK 6 streams may not be reliable as most are around 15Mbps so 6 would be 90 but what happens when they shoot up to 20Mbps or even 30. This also doesn't count other network traffic (such as moving a file from a pc to nas which will try and use all 100Mbps so will slow everything down) as well as some problems when multiple devices are talking over coax that would usually result in a bit or 2 of the packet being flipped and under tcp would be resent but with udp it may not be able to unless it is in the devices buffer but many still won't do this for UDP as it should not be asked for (wireless and moca do have some strategies built in for "collision" recovery like this as they realize it is a "shared" medium). In the old days internet connection was rarely over 20Mbps so usually did not impact it much... now with 50-100Mbps+ internet connection just opening a page from a browser might severely impact performance over MoCA.

I do strongly recommend that the main HTPC be wired to the tuner and not rely on MoCA and that MoCA should be only used for connection of extenders and occasional use machines

[Crash2009]

I would also like to defend the Actiontek MoCA adapters as being up to 270 Mbs and not 10/100.

The 270 mbps is the coax rating. It may be true that MoCA device to MoCA device can attain 270 mbps through the coax. However once it goes out of the device through "its own 10/100 Ethernet port", the most it can do is 100 mbps. You're not even getting that. You Sir, have been "had by an add" and you proved it with your next statement.

So far It has been able to handle 4 shows being recorded at once.

Each HD stream out of the tuner is approximately 13.5, if you multiply that by 4 that gives you a successful throughput at 54 mbps, that's a long way from 270. But that is not my point. My point is you have 6 tuners and each one needs 13.5 Multiply 13.5 by 6 for 81. You're 27 short and that's likely why your HTPC tells you the tuners are busy. The tuners are stuck on the freeway waiting to get on the on ramp.

Now let me give you another scenario. Lets say you agree to give the tuners what they need to send 6 recordings to the HTPC. That costs you 81. Now 3 of your users decide they want to watch some Recorded TV or a Movie that you recorded on the HTPC at the same time that your 6 show recording schedule kicks in, 13.5 times 3 is 40.5 Whoops, now we are way over out 100 mbps limit. Let's try just 2.....13.5 X 2.....Whoops, we are over again.

The next day you start a new post titled "My wife wants a divorce because her shows didn't record" WMC Sucks!

[Billyray520]

Thanks for the additional info guys! If push comes to shove, I would just run a real ethernet cable up to the HTPC/TV. But as I said, currently the MoCA system is functioning fine. I'll be aware that 4 tuners recording simultaneously and no other traffic may be the most I can expect though.

@signcarver: do you mean that having other MoCA adapters in the network, even though not being used for any traffic I would not get 100 mbs throughput at the HTPC? I have two others in the network, but I could easily take one out, and the other is only used during business hours for a home office, and not when recording or watching TV. IOW, the home office computers are shut down then.

[Crash2009]

This isn't about the amount of MoCA adapters. You can have 16 total. You have plenty of room for all of them. Taking 1 or 2 out will not make any difference. Your HTPC likely has, or should have, a 1000 mbps network adapter in it. Your Tuner ETH 6 has a 1000 mbps network adapter. These 2 all by themselves can send and or receive 1000 mega bits per second. When they need to talk to each other, like when the tuner is recording, and the HTPC is saving a copy, they need as much of that 1000 mbps as they desire. What they really want is a six foot tunnel between them rather than a one inch garden hose. When you connect a 1000 mbps network adapter to a 100 mbps network adapter both of them slow down to 100.

If you are up to it, here is a little test that will tell you what speed your MoCA network is. If you are interested, I''ll give you the file and explain how to run it. If your not, I won't bother.

192.168.1.10 and 192.168.1.123 both have 1000 mbps network adapters. The speed between the two is 925.792 mbps

If you run this test between your HTPC and your ETH6 the most you can get is 100 mbps, however I think you will only get 50 to 60. That's a long way from what they are capable of.

[Scallica]

The 270 mbps is the coax rating.

270 Mbps is the not the coax rating, it's a limitation of the MoCA 1.1 spec. MoCA 2.0 can support 400/800Mpbs.

http://www.mocalliance.org/MoCA1/index.htm

http://www.mocalliance.org/MoCA2/index.htm

[Crash2009]

One way or the other, they shouldn't miss-lead people to think that they are going to get 270 mbps throughput.

I have been looking into the MoCA thing for the last couple days. MoCA 2.0 is still on the drawing board. You can't even get it yet from what I found. The Certified Products List that you linked to, doesn't list any adapters, only gateways and modems.

Seems like MoCA 1.1 just died in late 2013- early 2014. It's like looking through an unorganized junkyard right now. Different specs for the same model. Trick pictures trying to hide stuff. It's like researching the "Lies & Deceit Store"

The best (and I'm not even sure I can trust the specs) ECB3500T01 Claims it has 4 Gigabit Ethernet ports. Problem is it also claims 270 PHY (whatever that means) and 175 DATA. I doubt that's 175 on each Gig port. If it were, that'd be most welcome. Let's round it off to 180. Divide by 4, that's 45 mbps per port. I think they failed to come up with a solution. So for now MoCA is a step backwards for me. But it is a viable option for those that have coax in place, and are unable or unwilling to run Ethernet or Fiber.

For reference, this is the recommended way to hook em up. Pole-Poe-Splitter(you need a 7)-MocaAdapter-CableModem. Then loop your router between the adapter and the modem. If you do it this way, every coax in the building is an automatic internet connection (every single one), just add an adapter-and your all set.

Oh yeah, use 2.0 Ghz splitters for MoCA.

[Crash2009]

Here you go. The next time you have trouble, dig out this picture. The Primary Circuit establishes your network. You must have the blue wire connecting the SBG6580 to the ECB2500. This blue wire is what inserts your network into the MoCA stream. Here is the link that explains "Why this is so important" http://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-networ ... st21999576

In the Secondary Circuit another blue wire connects the 2nd ECB2500 to the Uplink Port of a GIG switch. Now the HTPC and ETH 6 have the six foot tall tunnel they need. The jury is still deciding if the POE filter is necessary in front of the TA/ETH splitter. If you ever send a diag to Ceton and they tell you you have modulation or de-modulation errors, then you might need it.