Mixing HDHRPrime + Ceton ETH ?

[tzr916]

Have Ceton ETH6 for 2 years. Adding more tuners. Price of HDHR Prime is really good right now. Can get second cable card from Comcast for only $1.50/mo. So in stead of spending 3x as much on another Ceton ETH, I want to keep my current ETH and add HDHR Prime. I only use one WMC PC, 1 xbox360, and 2x echo extenders. Not interested in mobile watching, dlna, kodi, other "features". Questions:

Anyone here mixing Ceton + SD tuners on WMC with echo extenders? How hard is setup (adding more tuners to WMC)? Any conflicts/crashing/etc?

Ceton has web gui to interface with tuner ETH settings, manually tune each tuner for testing, read logs, etc. Does SD HDHR Prime have this or something similar?

I don't see link for FIRMWARE for HDHR Prime on SD site. How is Firmware update done?

[signcarver]

Many areas of comcast, that second card for $1.50 is only for the same device (i.e. a tivo that required 2 separate cablecards for all tuners to work) and/or they then charge a $10 additional outlet fee (often less the bring your own equipment fee of a couple bucks)... this does vary by market but it is rarely just that $1.50 so be warned. Typically I have found no issues with the echo for live/recorded TV (for some that was not always the case) so if your content currently works with the echo it should be fine the only thing that might mess it up is the additional network traffic but really if all 6 tuners of the eth can work at the same time, typically you will have plenty of overhead for the 3 extra tuners (though it is possible for all 6 to work with 100Mbps, it is unlikely). Since the prime is a dlna/upnp device, you may find your router does not like the traffic so I highly recommend all devices be plugged into a switch rather than a router (this is also often recommended for the ETH, but usually not as critical).

You can tune/play from the web interface of the prime, but you would need to open a new tab/window to view the signals of that stream since exiting the video would stop the tuner. If you wish to select a specific tuner (like to see if one tuner of the 3 is failing, I would tune by command line (or the gui associated with it) where you can specify tuner as usually tuner is "auto". Typically to update firmware, you would download the entire windows package and on install, it will update all found tuners. You can update manually but I've only have done it that way when I had to from linux and the command is hdhomerun_config ID upgrade FILE where id is the device id and file is the firmware file that is located from a link on the beta page (even if it is release). One thing to note, SD obeys the cablelabs rules for the prime and does not allow one to downgrade firmware so if you update, you are "stuck" if there is a problem until another fix/beta comes out (There was only a couple of bad releases/betas that were quickly fixed, the worse actually being a release rather than a beta, and if you happen to have an NDS card, those fixes may more often be undone in the next version).

My provider protects everything but locals which are clear qam so typically I will have my ceton products "dedicated" to the lone WMC machine and watch via extenders (xbox/echo) and then open up the prime to everything else as WMC may get confused when it tries a tuner and it is in use by something else (this hasn't been a problem for quite awhile but used to be quite frequent) Though you say you don't care about dlna/kodi etc. with comcast, you might find that you really do like these features as everything but premiums works with them and if you want to get to that other tv a $50 stick may be all you need rather than $100 for another extender. Though I have great luck getting ceton and SD to work on the same system, a troubleshooting step from each would be to eliminate the other as a possible cause.

[tzr916]

Thanks for the details!

[TeddyR]

Though I have great luck getting ceton and SD to work on the same system, a troubleshooting step from each would be to eliminate the other as a possible cause.

Officially the two software SHOULD work together but in my personal (albeit a little jaded due to issues with the USB ITV4 and poor channel changing with either the USB ITV4 or ETH6) experience the Ceton software may not be as "robust" as the SD software on the same system... (ie: I have had situations where the system was definitely more unstable with the Ceton software/drivers installed that followed the ceton drivers even when no other tuner software was installed)

[epayson85]

I have a ceton pcie 6 and a hdhomerun. They work great together. I have always had sporadic issues with my ceton so the home run is great cuz its so reliable. Its very easy to add more tuners just rerun the tv setup.

[tzr916]

I have nine tuners! Up and running with ETH6 and HDHR Prime. Changing channels betwen the two in WMC is working fine. So far so good.

[tzr916]

...You can tune/play from the web interface of the prime...

I tried this with two different browsers and it fails. I goto tuner IP, channel list, click channel, I can see the light on the Prime turn on, but the browser window just shows a big Quicktime logo in the center and nothing plays, after a minute or two the light on the Prime starts flashing and goes out then the browser either freezes or I just close it.

[signcarver]

Most likely the quicktime plugin... I've never got that to work properly with mpeg2 streams(which the majority of TV would be)... generally you want to use either the wmp or vlc plugin, chrome also can be a problem as every week they seem to want to disable your plugins. I don't use them that often as for me only the locals are not protected so I "have" to use WMC.

Edit: sorry for the "late" reply for some reason I hadn't seen that last post and thought maybe to not post at all but it may give some others help if you didn't figure it out already.

[Crash2009]

Thanks Signcarver, I'll be adding a HDHR in the near future. Your suggestions will give me a good starting point.

[McGary]

I have a ceton pcie 6 and a hdhomerun. They work great together. I have always had sporadic issues with my ceton so the home run is great cuz its so reliable. Its very easy to add more tuners just rerun the tv setup.

I need to buy one (or more) of these to replace my current tuners -- my HTPC has four Hauppauge 2250's that work great, but Time Warner is switching to all-encrypted-digital in a few weeks, so I need to move to cable card tuners.

Although we currently have 8 tuners, the reality is that 6 is plenty, so I was thinking of going with the Ceton 6-tuner PCIe card. But I've seen several negative reviews about this card, and almost nothing bad about the HDHR Prime ... so I'm thinking perhaps 2 (or even 3) of these would be a better choice.

Since you have both -- and have indeed had some issues with your Ceton -- I'd be interested in what you'd buy if you were starting over with these.

The HDHR Primes are also very nicely priced -- I can buy 2 of them for less than a Ceton -- so if they're more reliable that's definitely the way to go.

BTW, as an aside ... are you using TunerSalad to support 9 tuners in WMC? ... or is there another way to overcome the tuner restriction?

[McGary]

I have nine tuners! Up and running with ETH6 and HDHR Prime. Changing channels betwen the two in WMC is working fine. So far so good.

Same question that I just posted, since you've also got both a Ceton and an HDHR Prime. You didn't mention any issues with the Ceton, but epayson85 and a few others have mentioned stability issues with the Ceton. If you were starting over, would you still get the Ceton? ... or would you just buy 3 of the Primes??

[tzr916]

I have nine tuners! Up and running with ETH6 and HDHR Prime. Changing channels betwen the two in WMC is working fine. So far so good.

Same question that I just posted, since you've also got both a Ceton and an HDHR Prime. You didn't mention any issues with the Ceton, but epayson85 and a few others have mentioned stability issues with the Ceton. If you were starting over, would you still get the Ceton? ... or would you just buy 3 of the Primes??

Oh yes, I have had stability issues with Ceton. Took quite some time to perfect all the tweaks (PC, networking, fan) to make it 97% reliable. The whole reason I had to add an HDHRPrime was because after two years of good service, out of no-where the Ceton ETH was flat out failing to tune two very important non HD channels. Ceton replaced the unit, Comcast verified good signal. Nobody could explain it or solve it. Prime has no issue with the two channels.

Would I get 3 primes if starting over- probably... But that means 3 cable cards to setup, 3 coax splits (4 with the HSI modem), 3 power supply plugs...

[mdavej]

I would still go with Ceton. I'd rather deal with occasional reliability issues (monthly reboot fixes it) than pay for more cards/outlet fees and take much bigger signal strength hit due to more splits. Since I have tuning adapters, 3 Homerun Primes means 6 way split just for the tuners and adapters. I get by with a single 6 tuner Ceton in my 6 TV household just fine. Luckily I'm not running an Air BNB like a lot of you guys.

[McGary]

Other than the extra cost for a 2nd cable card (and possibly a 3rd if I got 3 Primes), is there any other disadvantage? It sounds like the Primes are appreciably more reliable (anyone disagree with that??) ... and signal strength isn't an issue, as I have an 8-output unity gain amp at my HTPC, so there's no "split" penalty. Going down to the TWC store tomorrow to check the pricing, but they told me on the phone the cable cards are only $2.49 each, so that's not an issue (I forgot to ask if there's an additional charge for the tuning adapters, so that may change the math a bit).

[mdavej]

Other than the extra cost for a 2nd cable card (and possibly a 3rd if I got 3 Primes), is there any other disadvantage? It sounds like the Primes are appreciably more reliable (anyone disagree with that??) ... and signal strength isn't an issue, as I have an 8-output unity gain amp at my HTPC, so there's no "split" penalty. Going down to the TWC store tomorrow to check the pricing, but they told me on the phone the cable cards are only $2.49 each, so that's not an issue (I forgot to ask if there's an additional charge for the tuning adapters, so that may change the math a bit).

Primes are definitely more reliable. Tuning adapters are usually free with the cards, assuming your area even uses them. Only thing to watch out for is additional "outlet" fees. Comcast charges $10, not sure about TWC. My cable company has no such outlet fees.

Also count on buying Tuner Salad or loading Ceton drivers (yes, Ceton drivers even though you have Primes) to bump up your tuner limit in WMC.

[McGary]

Thanks .. Primes it shall be then. I'll start with 2, which should be plenty. Dropping to 6 tuners instead of 8 isn't likely to be anything we really notice. I just had 8 "because I could" (filled all the available PCIe slots with 2250's) Already have Tuner Salad (needed it to use my 2250's).

Too bad SD doesn't make a 6-tuner version of Prime. I know they did, but (a) it's apparently no longer available; and (b) it was really just 2 of the 3-tuner versions in a single box ... so it still required two M cards. On the other hand, I wonder if the issues with Ceton is that they're pushing the M card to its limit of 6 channels.

[McGary]

Got my first HDHomeRun Prime yesterday ... took a while to get through to the right folks at Time Warner who actually knew how to get the cable card and SDV activated -- but once done it's working beautifully. Just ordered a 2nd one ... and will then remove all my Hauppauge tuners after it's set up. Then I need to decide if I want to go a bit ballistic and order a 3rd one so I'll have 9 tuners like tzr916

I suspect 6 is plenty ... but I DO have 8 now (actually 11 at the moment, since I added the Prime ... but the 2250's are all going away) ... and I kinda hate to drop the number!

[McGary]

I was thinking about the 2 vs 3 question r.e. HomeRun Primes => and wonder if anyone has experimented with the realistic number of network tuners you can have active at one time without saturating the network. 3 Primes, with 9 tuners, would in theory allow recording 9 HD channels at once. Can a Gb network support that data rate?? Anyone tried even more? [I'm asking specifically about network tuners]

[Crash2009]

9 HD channels at once

I don't think that's going to work. Each HD recording stream is about 1300 mbps (13% of your gig network). 7 HD recordings (7 X 1300) would put you at 91% of saturation. Your HTPC could play 1 of those streams through its own display system without adding to the network load. The minute somebody turns on an extender or plays a recording, I think you will get some network issues.

My 1300 mbps calculation is based upon testing with PRTG Network Monitor.

http://www.paessler.com/tools

[McGary]

According to Silicon Dust a single full QAM stream requires 38.4Mb/s of bandwidth. At that rate 9 streams would be ~ 350Mb/s ... or a bit over 1/3rd of the theoretical max for a Gb network. Real world usage won't get to a full Gb, but I've seen file transfers hit over 900Mb, so 350MB doesn't seem unrealistic. Just curious is anyone's tried that ... or even more.