What exactly does "New & rerun" record?

[Space]

Part of being a WMC adopter for recording TV is trying to figure out how it all works, because there is scarce documentation.

One thing that has been a slight mystery to me is how certain recording functions work.

For instance, what exactly does a Series recording set to "New & rerun" do?

From scouring here and other places on the Internet, I have gathered that it is supposed to work like this:

Record one copy of every unique episode of the show that is in the guide.
If THIS Series has ever recorded a given episode at ANY TIME IN THE PAST, do not record that episode ever again.
Record every episode of this show that has generic (non-episode specific) information (can result in recording repeats of episodes already recorded).

Based on this info, last September I set up a Series recording for "Orphan Black" on BBC America using "New & rerun". This Series successfully recorded a single instance of every episode of the first season (from September through November).

So far, everything is working perfectly!

Now, I have since watched and deleted every episode, so the recording no longer exist on the WMC PC, but I can still see the recorded/deleted entries in History and I still have the same Series active.

Anyway, fast-forward to today and I am looking at the upcoming Scheduled recordings and I see that my old Series has scheduled two episode of Orphan Black to record. Looking at them I see that they are the first two episodes of the first season. The episode names and descriptions match what I have listed in the History as being recorded in September (6 months ago).


So my question is, why would it have scheduled these episodes to record? Shouldn't it know that this Series has already recorded them and not record them again?
I can understand recording an episode more than once if it has generic info, but not if it has episode-specific data that matches an episode it already recorded.

If it is a matter of something in the listings not being identical, then what could it be? And if so, it is a pretty poor implementation of this feature and makes it pretty much useless, as I have seen this happen before, so it must be pretty common.

Is there something I am missing about this feature? Is there a limit on how far back WMC will search to see if an episode has already been recorded? If so, this goes against what I have read multiple times in various forums. Perhaps this feature does not work if you use the "New & rerun" setting?

Thanks for any insight you may be able to give!

[mike_ekim]

The guide data may be different enough so MC doesn't realize it has already recorded that episode. I get that sometimes with often-repeated shows like 'Regular Show'. It will record an episode, and then that episode is re-ran 10 times it will get re-recorded once or twice.

[Space]

TMS provides a way to uniquely identify an episode (tmsID), so Microsoft could have used that. Perhaps they wanted to be able to switch providers, so they needed to come up with their own way? I am guessing that other providers also have a way to uniquely identify an episode, so they could have just relied on this instead of whatever they are doing now (anyone know what they are doing to determine episode uniqueness?).

[Space]

So I see more upcoming episodes of this show wanting to record and I was wondering something...

If I select each episode that is scheduled to record and choose "do not record", does this add this episode to the list of episodes to never record again within this Series?
Or if I do this will it still try to record this episode if it appears in the guide again sometime in the future (assuming the guide data is identical to the one I told to not record).

I guess what I am asking is if I want to have the best chance of a particular episode not recording every time it airs in the future, should I let it record (so that it is added to the "do not record" list) or can I use the "do not record" option and it will also add it to this list?

Thanks

[CyberSimian]

If I select each episode that is scheduled to record and choose "do not record", does this add this episode to the list of episodes to never record again within this Series?

Yes. Of course, if it appears again in the EPG in a few months time, but with a different programme id (or with no programme id), WMC will think that it is a different episode, and record it. So it depends on the accuracy of your EPG data.

-- from CyberSimian in the UK

[Space]

Yes, I understand that the guide data has to match, but I just wanted to make sure that selecting "do not record" will add it to the permanent (for that Series) "do not record" list. So you say it does add it to the list, this is good to know, thanks!

[captain_video]

Here's my take on how WMC detemines what shows to record:

WMC looks at the OAD (Original Air Date) listed in the guide (it's shown in the show description). If the OAD is the same date as the day it is scheduled to record, it is considered a New show. If the OAD is different than the current date, it will be considered a rerun. There may be other metadata emvbedded in the show's description that isn't listed that WMC can see to further determine the status of a show. If multiple instances of the same show are aired on the same date and that date is the OAD, there's a chance you may get multiple recordings. If the initial recording fails or gets truncated for some reason, WMC will automatically record the next instance of the show based on the parameters you have specified (i.e., channel, HD only, etc.).

Clicking on "Do not record" in a show description only applies to that specific airing of the show. You will have to select Cancel series if you want to cancel all instances of that show.

Some shows will not have any specific information in the show's description and may just have the show title and a generic description of the series rather than anything episode specific. WMC will likely see these as New and will schedule them all for recording. Note that many shows are listed this way when they first appear in the guide, but the information tends to fill in with more details as the air date approaches. If WMC sees that a show that was originally scheduled to record is now determined to be a rerun and you have specified New only, it will be deleted from the scheduled recording list automatically.

When recording shows that may have aired previously in another country, such as shows on BBC America or some of the SyFy Channel shows like Continuum or Lost Girl, the OAD will probably be listed with the date they actually aired for the first time in another part of the world. In this case you will need to specify New & Rerun in the recording parameters and not New only. If you specify only New episodes then chances are nothing will get recorded.

[Polen]

Here's my take on how WMC detemines what shows to record:

WMC looks at the OAD (Original Air Date) listed in the guide (it's shown in the show description). If the OAD is the same date as the day it is scheduled to record, it is considered a New show. If the OAD is different than the current date, it will be considered a rerun. There may be other metadata emvbedded in the show's description that isn't listed that WMC can see to further determine the status of a show. If multiple instances of the same show are aired on the same date and that date is the OAD, there's a chance you may get multiple recordings. If the initial recording fails or gets truncated for some reason, WMC will automatically record the next instance of the show based on the parameters you have specified (i.e., channel, HD only, etc.).

Clicking on "Do not record" in a show description only applies to that specific airing of the show. You will have to select Cancel series if you want to cancel all instances of that show.

Some shows will not have any specific information in the show's description and may just have the show title and a generic description of the series rather than anything episode specific. WMC will likely see these as New and will schedule them all for recording. Note that many shows are listed this way when they first appear in the guide, but the information tends to fill in with more details as the air date approaches. If WMC sees that a show that was originally scheduled to record is now determined to be a rerun and you have specified New only, it will be deleted from the scheduled recording list automatically.

When recording shows that may have aired previously in another country, such as shows on BBC America or some of the SyFy Channel shows like Continuum or Lost Girl, the OAD will probably be listed with the date they actually aired for the first time in another part of the world. In this case you will need to specify New & Rerun in the recording parameters and not New only. If you specify only New episodes then chances are nothing will get recorded.

I came over from SageTV and I can say that it behaves very similar to this description as well. I wonder if TiVo is like this?

[Space]

I believe I have seen behavior that does not quite match some of what you have described, but I will have to investigate it more to be sure...

For instance, I believe I have seen instances where the OAD is wrong, but the show was marked as "new" and it was recorded correctly. You did mention that other data may be used to determine "newness" so maybe that covers this case. I don't recall any show being considered "new" if the "new" flag was not set but the OAD was correct, but I will have to look at that more closely.

Another thing I noticed that you did not mention is that if an episode is marked as "new" (according to zap2it), all other instances of that episode for the next 7 days after that first airing are also marked "new" (and have the "i" icon indicating that they will record on another date if you have a Series recording set up), airings of that episode that are on after that 7 day period do not have the little "i" icon. Like you said, if the episode that is set to record experiences a problem, one of the other "new" airings will be set to record. It is not clear that if the only remaining (or non-conflicting) airing is more than 7 days after the first airing if it will be set to record (assuming you have the Series set to "new only").

One thing I have thought about doing is setting ALL series records to "New & Rerun", since it would seem it would record all new episodes even if they are incorrectly marked as repeats, but this would only work for new series, since otherwise it would annoyingly record previous seasons if you have not already used WMC to record them in the past. Also, it appears that WMC is very liberal in what it considers to be an unrecorded episode (sometimes rerecording the same episodes multiple times due to some small difference in the metadata), so doing this may not be practical.

As far as WMC recording multiple instances that air on the same date if that date matches the OAD, I have only seen this when the initial guide data has generic (non episode-specific) data for these episodes (so they are all set to record) and then later updates them with episode-specific data. In this case it will not remove the "record dot" from all episodes that were set to record because they were "generic". The episodes do not have to be airing on the same date for this to happen. Note that I have also seen this "bug" not occur, where the dots were properly changed to "i" icons and only one airing of the show was set to record, but it is not clear to me under what conditions it works and which it doesn't.

[captain_video]

I came over from SageTV and I can say that it behaves very similar to this description as well. I wonder if TiVo is like this?

According to many of the folks at the Tivo Community Forum, the Tivo guide data reflects the OAD as the date it first airs locally, not the rest of the world. If the show aired months ago in the UK or Canada but it's airing for the 1st time in the U.S., the OAD is listed as the U.S. debut and not the actual OAD. Tivos can record these shows as New as a result.

Both Tivo and WMC get guide data from Zap2it. However, each middleman tweaks the data to suit the appropriate platform. Tivo must be tweaking the OAD for these programs as well as retaining some of the metadata that Microsoft is apparently stripping out, such as tagging that reflects new shows and reruns in some cases..

[slowbiscuit]

Incorrect, Tivo guide data OAD for Brit shows (e.g. Top Gear, Wheeler Dealers) is the exact opposite - the OAD is the UK air date, not the USA and it often causes you to have to either set season passes as new and rerun or watch the guide like a hawk. It's a longstanding gripe and I assume WMC gets it the same way.

Tivo has a 28-day rule to determine if it's new, so anything with an OAD in the last 4 weeks is a new show.

[captain_video]

Incorrect, Tivo guide data OAD for Brit shows (e.g. Top Gear, Wheeler Dealers) is the exact opposite - the OAD is the UK air date, not the USA and it often causes you to have to either set season passes as new and rerun or watch the guide like a hawk. It's a longstanding gripe and I assume WMC gets it the same way.

Tivo has a 28-day rule to determine if it's new, so anything with an OAD in the last 4 weeks is a new show.

If this is the case then people are posting conflicting info at the TCF. I don't have a Tivo anymore to confirm or deny this. However, I do agree about the 28-day rule on a Tivo. It's the OAD that's being reported erroneously (by forum members, not Tivo).

[CyberSimian]

Here's my take on how WMC detemines what shows to record

Understanding how WMC schedules recordings is largely speculation, so you may be correct in what you say ...but I don't think that you are.

WMC looks at the OAD (Original Air Date) listed in the guide (it's shown in the show description). If the OAD is the same date as the day it is scheduled to record, it is considered a New show. If the OAD is different than the current date, it will be considered a rerun.

I don't think that it works that way; see next point.

There may be other metadata embedded in the show's description that isn't listed, that WMC can see to further determine the status of a show.

Quite so. I have included at the end of this post a list of all of the metadata information that I found by rummaging around in a DVR-MS file. A WTV file may have additional items not listed here. Some metadata items have names that are simple words, others have names that are prefixed with "WM/" or "WM/WMRV"; in the list below I have separated the prefix to make it easier to see the meaningful part of the name.

Among the items listed you will see that there is "WM/MediaIsRepeat", which is what WMC uses to decide whether a programme is a repeat. There is also "WM/WMRVProgramID", which is an encoded string that uniquely identifies a particular programme/episode. WMC uses the programme id to decide whether a programme in the EPG is identical to another in the EPG.

So, episodes from the previous season will (should) have the repeat flag set, and if you specify "New only" WMC will not record them. Repeats of episodes in the current season will not have the repeat flag set, but will have identical programme ids, so WMC will record only one of them (typically the first, but if that recording fails then WMC will record a later one).

WMC users are at the mercy of the EPG providers, and that means the channels who provide the information to the EPG aggregator(I would assume that Zap2It is the aggregator in the US). In the UK, channel Five insists on flagging new episodes of "CSI" and "Law and Order" as repeats, because they were previously broadcast by some other channel on satellite (not on terrestrial). Channel Five is the only UK channel that does this; the other channels flag episodes as repeats only if they have already been broadcast on terrestrial TV. The EPG aggregator in the UK does no editing of the EPG data -- they merely take what the channels give them, aggregate it, and then pass it on to Microsoft for MS to distribute.

If multiple instances of the same show are aired on the same date and that date is the
OAD, there's a chance you may get multiple recordings.

I suspect that this occurs because the EPG contains incorrect programmes ids for these programmes, or (perhaps more likely) no programme ids at all. So WMC "plays safe" and records them all.

If the initial recording fails or gets truncated for some reason, WMC will automatically record the next instance of the show based on the parameters you have specified (i.e., channel, HD only, etc.).

Yes (see above).

Clicking on "Do not record" in a show description only applies to that specific airing of the show. You will have to select Cancel series if you want to cancel all instances of that show.

Clicking "Do not record" applies to all programmes that have the same programme id as the programme selected. If the EPG info is correct, this will be all repeats that that specific episode; it is not restricted to that single airing of that episode.

Some shows will not have any specific information in the show's description and may just have the show title and a generic description of the series rather than anything episode specific. WMC will likely see these as New and will schedule them all for recording.

WMC doesn't use the programme title or programme description to decide whether an episode is a repeat of another in the EPG; WMC uses the programme id. But if the EPG does not contain a programme id for a particular episode, WMC will "play safe" and schedule it to record.

Note that many shows are listed this way when they first appear in the guide, but the information tends to fill in with more details as the air date approaches. If WMC sees that a show that was originally scheduled to record is now determined to be a rerun and you have specified New only, it will be deleted from the scheduled recording list automatically.

Agreed.

-- from CyberSimian in the UK

List of metadata items found in DVR-MS files:

Code: Select all

  Prefix  Name Excluding Prefix            Type
  ------- ------------------------------  ------
  WM/WMRV ActualSoftPostPadding            int4
  WM/WMRV ActualSoftPrePadding             int4
          ASFLeakyBucketPairs              hexstr
  WM/WMRV ATSCContent                      bool
          Author                           string
  WM/WMRV Bitrate                          int8
          Comment                          string
  WM/WMRV ContentProtected                 bool
  WM/WMRV ContentProtectedPercent          int4
          Copyright                        string
  WM/WMRV DTVContent                       bool
          DVR File Version                 hexstr
          DVR Index Granularity            int4
  WM/WMRV EncodeTime                       date
  WM/WMRV EndTime                          date
  WM/WMRV ExpirationDate                   int8
          FileSize                         int8
      WM/ Genre                            string
  WM/WMRV HardPostPadding                  int4
  WM/WMRV HardPrePadding                   int4
  WM/WMRV HDContent                        bool
  WM/WMRV InBandRatingAttributes           int4
  WM/WMRV InBandRatingLevel                int4
  WM/WMRV InBandRatingSystem               int4
          IsVBR                            bool
  WM/WMRV KeepUntil                        int4
      WM/ Language                         string
          MaxBitrate                       int4
      WM/ MediaCredits                     string
      WM/ MediaIsDelay                     bool
      WM/ MediaIsFinale                    bool
      WM/ MediaIsLive                      bool
      WM/ MediaIsMovie                     bool
      WM/ MediaIsPremiere                  bool
      WM/ MediaIsRepeat                    bool
      WM/ MediaIsSAP                       bool
      WM/ MediaIsStereo                    bool
      WM/ MediaIsSubtitled                 bool
      WM/ MediaIsTape                      bool
      WM/ MediaNetworkAffiliation          string
      WM/ MediaOriginalBroadcastDateTime   string
      WM/ MediaOriginalChannel             string
      WM/ MediaOriginalRunTime             time
      WM/ MediaStationCallSign             string
      WM/ MediaStationName                 string
      WM/ MediaThumbAspectRatioX           int4
      WM/ MediaThumbAspectRatioY           int4
      WM/ MediaThumbHeight                 int4
      WM/ MediaThumbRatingAttributes       int4
      WM/ MediaThumbRatingLevel            int4
      WM/ MediaThumbRatingSystem           int4
      WM/ MediaThumbRet                    int4
      WM/ MediaThumbStride                 int4
      WM/ MediaThumbTimeStamp              int8
      WM/ MediaThumbType                   int4
      WM/ MediaThumbWidth                  int4
      WM/ OriginalReleaseTime              string
  WM/WMRV OriginalSoftPostPadding          int4
  WM/WMRV OriginalSoftPrePadding           int4
      WM/ ParentalRating                   string
      WM/ ParentalRatingReason             string
      WM/ Picture                          hexstr
          PlayDuration                     time
  WM/WMRV ProgramID                        string
      WM/ Provider                         string
      WM/ ProviderCopyright                string
      WM/ ProviderRating                   string
  WM/WMRV Quality                          int4
          Rating                           string
  WM/WMRV RequestID                        int4
  WM/WMRV ScheduleItemID                   int4
      WMF SDKNeeded                        string
      WMF SDKVersion                       string
          SendDuration                     time
  WM/WMRV ServiceID                        string
      WM/ SubTitle                         string
      WM/ SubTitleDescription              string
          Title                            string
          VBR Peak                         int4
      WM/ VideoClosedCaptioning            bool
  WM/WMRV Watched                          bool
  ------- ------------------------------  ------

[captain_video]

Here's my take on how WMC detemines what shows to record

Understanding how WMC schedules recordings is largely speculation, so you may be correct in what you say ...but I don't think that you are.

True. I have yet to find a definitive explanation of how WMC records shows so I tried to make an educated guess based on what I've experienced.

WMC looks at the OAD (Original Air Date) listed in the guide (it's shown in the show description). If the OAD is the same date as the day it is scheduled to record, it is considered a New show. If the OAD is different than the current date, it will be considered a rerun.

I don't think that it works that way; see next point.[/quote]
Again, pure speculation on my part. There is likely other information that WMC is looking for to determine the status of any program.

Clicking on "Do not record" in a show description only applies to that specific airing of the show. You will have to select Cancel series if you want to cancel all instances of that show.

Clicking "Do not record" applies to all programmes that have the same programme id as the programme selected. If the EPG info is correct, this will be all repeats that that specific episode; it is not restricted to that single airing of that episode.[/quote]
That's an interesting point, and possibly quite valid. I have deleted instances of a single show and rescheduled another air date for recording, but I can't recall the sequence in which I performed it offhand. I did run into a situation recently where the series finale of Being Human on SyFy was scheduled to record on a different night than it usually aired. I checked and there were no conflicts so I resceheduled it to record on Monday instead of the original date in the schedule (Saturday?). I believe I then deleted the recording for the original date and the show disappeared from the schedule altogether, which reinforces what you're saying. I thought I had inadvertantly deleted the rescheduled recording instead of the original, but now you've got me thinking that this may not have been the case.