Looking to replace Tivo - Thinking about Ceton

[kd6icz]

So... I too was a Tivo user for 10 years. I'm just going to put it this way. You won't save money building a WMC system unless you own a few Xbox 360's and a PC that you can dedicate to the task. Make no mistake! This a hobby more than a practical home entertainment system. You will be rebooting on a regular basis and constantly fighting with windows updates that cripple the system. A new Tivo with a Tivo mini both with lifetime subscriptions is about the same price as what I currently have invested in my WMC system with 6 tuners and a 3TB drive. But if you want to build a 32TB DVR with 12 tuners then this is the only way to go.

[makryger]

So... I too was a Tivo user for 10 years. I'm just going to put it this way. You won't save money building a WMC system unless you own a few Xbox 360's and a PC that you can dedicate to the task. Make no mistake! This a hobby more than a practical home entertainment system. You will be rebooting on a regular basis and constantly fighting with windows updates that cripple the system. A new Tivo with a Tivo mini both with lifetime subscriptions is about the same price as what I currently have invested in my WMC system with 6 tuners and a 3TB drive. But if you want to build a 32TB DVR with 12 tuners then this is the only way to go.

Respectfully disagree... I have windows updates turned off, and my media center is stable, reliable, and practical. I spent about $400 for my htpc. Can't comment on the pricing for TiVo vs wmc, as ive haven't looked into TiVo pricing recently, but my cable bill is effectively $25 less per month because of my htpc. That's a break even point in 16 months.

[kd6icz]

I had nothing. So two Xbox's, Ceton PCIe 6, Intel i3, 8GB RAM, Intel motherboard, 3TB HDD, 32GB SSD, case, power supply, and DVD drive. All that added up together is $1400. A new 3TB Tivo with lifetime subscription is $1069 from Weaknees. A Tivo mini is $249 with lifetime subscription. So in my case it would have been cheaper.

[mdavej]

Point taken, but that's still not apples to apples. Does your Tivo have a DVD, SSD and 8GB RAM? Can your Tivo mini play video games, or come with game controllers? I can get a new Echo for about $100. I can get brand new PC capable of recording and playback plus a Ceton tuner for about $500. So you spent much more than was necessary to replicate the functionality of those Tivos.

[blueiedgod]

I had nothing. So two Xbox's, Ceton PCIe 6, Intel i3, 8GB RAM, Intel motherboard, 3TB HDD, 32GB SSD, case, power supply, and DVD drive. All that added up together is $1400. A new 3TB Tivo with lifetime subscription is $1069 from Weaknees. A Tivo mini is $249 with lifetime subscription. So in my case it would have been cheaper.

Check out www.slickdeals.net You never, ever pay retail.

Xbox 360 = $99
Ceton IniniTV6 PCIe/ETH = $204
8 GB of RAM = $20
32GB SSD (should be free, you can't even load Win 7 on it). You need at least 64 GB = $50
3 TB hard drive = $60
Case + PSU = $40 - $50
DVD Drive = $15
i3 is not needed, get AMD for half the price (CPU+Mobo combo) $100

Everything comes out just a hair under $600. Add Win 7 $10 - $100, and you are still UNDER TiVO price.

[kd6icz]

I got Win 7 on the 32 just fine with 4GB free. Unfortunately I didn't have cash so I had use a store credit card. Plus this was back before the Xbox 1 came out so the 360's were still close to $200. I purchased the PCIe 6 the day it came out so it was every bit of $299. I built the system based on Ceton's recommended specifications. 2.6GHz CPU and 6GB of RAM. All in a mini ITX form factor. Went with a WD RED 3TB HDD which at the time was also brand new to the market. My point is this is purely a hobby. If you want reliability go with Tivo.

[kd6icz]

I had nothing. So two Xbox's, Ceton PCIe 6, Intel i3, 8GB RAM, Intel motherboard, 3TB HDD, 32GB SSD, case, power supply, and DVD drive. All that added up together is $1400. A new 3TB Tivo with lifetime subscription is $1069 from Weaknees. A Tivo mini is $249 with lifetime subscription. So in my case it would have been cheaper.

Check out http://www.slickdeals.net You never, ever pay retail.

Xbox 360 = $99
Ceton IniniTV6 PCIe/ETH = $204
8 GB of RAM = $20
32GB SSD (should be free, you can't even load Win 7 on it). You need at least 64 GB = $50
3 TB hard drive = $60
Case + PSU = $40 - $50
DVD Drive = $15
i3 is not needed, get AMD for half the price (CPU+Mobo combo) $100

Everything comes out just a hair under $600. Add Win 7 $10 - $100, and you are still UNDER TiVO price.

Just so everyone here knows these prices are not true. I went to that website and it either said this deal has expired or came back with a much higher price.

[epayson85]

I always find the best prices at micro center.
3tb hard drive = $89
2tb hard drive = $69
G3220 Intel haswell chip plus mobo = $100
8gb ram = $59 combined with a mobo or CPU
4gb sodimm for mini-itx = $35
64gig ssd = $52


I bought all of this last week for a couple new builds I am doing.

[adam1991]

You will be rebooting on a regular basis and constantly fighting with windows updates that cripple the system.

Ummmmm.....no to the regular rebooting, and no to the "constantly fighting with windows updates". On a DVR that's just a DVR, you turn those OFF.

[adam1991]

I had nothing. So two Xbox's, Ceton PCIe 6, Intel i3, 8GB RAM, Intel motherboard, 3TB HDD, 32GB SSD, case, power supply, and DVD drive. All that added up together is $1400. A new 3TB Tivo with lifetime subscription is $1069 from Weaknees. A Tivo mini is $249 with lifetime subscription. So in my case it would have been cheaper.

Two XBoxen, a tuner, and a PC is $1400. That's fine.

A lifetime Tivo is $1069. A Tivo mini with lifetime is $249. That's $1318. Cheaper than $1400, but not by much.

Oh, wait--where's the OTHER lifetime Tivo Mini? The one that matches up with the SECOND Xbox you described in your cost analysis?

$1318 plus $249 is $1567--that's $167 MORE than your $1400 Ceton system.

[slowbiscuit]

This a hobby more than a practical home entertainment system. You will be rebooting on a regular basis and constantly fighting with windows updates that cripple the system.

Uh, no, not in my experience. And I also use my HTPC as a gaming PC.

[slowbiscuit]

I had nothing. So two Xbox's, Ceton PCIe 6, Intel i3, 8GB RAM, Intel motherboard, 3TB HDD, 32GB SSD, case, power supply, and DVD drive. All that added up together is $1400. A new 3TB Tivo with lifetime subscription is $1069 from Weaknees. A Tivo mini is $249 with lifetime subscription. So in my case it would have been cheaper.

Two XBoxen, a tuner, and a PC is $1400. That's fine.

A lifetime Tivo is $1069. A Tivo mini with lifetime is $249. That's $1318. Cheaper than $1400, but not by much.

Oh, wait--where's the OTHER lifetime Tivo Mini? The one that matches up with the SECOND Xbox you described in your cost analysis?

$1318 plus $249 is $1567--that's $167 MORE than your $1400 Ceton system.

Yep, a WMC whole house setup (i.e. a couple of TVs or more) will always be cheaper than the equivalent Tivo setup, assuming you know how to shop for PC components. But on the flip side, lifetime Tivos do have decent resale value and a PC does not.

[Scallica]

My point is this is purely a hobby. If you want reliability go with Tivo.

In general, HTPC is a hobby. If you constantly tweak your system which includes (installing updates, installing new software, updating/breaking codecs, installing new hardware, updating drivers) then yes, it's a hobby. However, if you configure a system with quality hardware and simply leave it alone, you can have a stable standalone DVR appliance.

Tivos are a great product, however, they are not without their issues as well. I'm sure they are plenty bugs in their software, (which they release updates to). I'm sure a Tivo owner has had to deal with a freeze/lockup or some other unexpected behavior more than once.

Also, Tivos appliances are a closed platform. Whereas in a WMC system, the hardware is entirely variable, and certain hardware selections can cause issues.

My 2c

[barnabas1969]

I had nothing. So two Xbox's, Ceton PCIe 6, Intel i3, 8GB RAM, Intel motherboard, 3TB HDD, 32GB SSD, case, power supply, and DVD drive. All that added up together is $1400. A new 3TB Tivo with lifetime subscription is $1069 from Weaknees. A Tivo mini is $249 with lifetime subscription. So in my case it would have been cheaper.

I spared no expense on my PC. I spent about $1000 building it (see this thread for details). I have 10 tuners (6 CableCARD and 4 OTA), and spent about $500 on them total (they are less expensive now than when I bought them). I have two Xboxes which I bought new for $149 each, and two other extenders that I bought for $100 each. So, my total is about $2000.

Using your example pricing, it would have cost me $2065 for Tivo, but it would have 4 fewer tuners and no access to OTA content like I have today. So, if we are comparing apples to apples, my system would have cost $1800 without the OTA tuners. That means, based on your pricing, that the Tivo would cost me $265 more than Media Center did. But... back when I looked at the new Tivo lineup, I came up with a total that was well over $3000 with the pricing that was listed on Tivo's website, so I don't know where you got your pricing.

EDIT: I just looked at the weaKnees website. The Roamio Pro with a 4TB HDD (same as my Media Center PC) with 4 mini's and lifetime sub would be $2250. So, comparing apples to apples, my system cost $450 less.

[kd6icz]

Well guys I'm only giving my experience with WMC vs. Tivo.

@adam1991. You must have been drunk when you posted. My math is right on the money. I only have two TV's so I would only need one Tivo and one mini. I use extenders on both my TV's now because I don't want to use my WMC PC as a set top box. I let it sit in an out of the way place where nobody touches it.

I would love to get my system working reliably! I did carefully choose quality components and spent extra money to build a quality system. When it just goes to a black screen for no apparent reason or No Tuners Available or the error code that it can't record a channel due to no signal. These are all failures in Media Center. My old Tivo HD's NEVER gave me issues. In the 6 years I had my HD's I had to reboot twice.

If any of you have suggestions I'm all ears.

[barnabas1969]

Well guys I'm only giving my experience with WMC vs. Tivo.

@adam1991. You must have been drunk when you posted. My math is right on the money. I only have two TV's so I would only need one Tivo and one mini. I use extenders on both my TV's now because I don't want to use my WMC PC as a set top box. I let it sit in an out of the way place where nobody touches it.

I would love to get my system working reliably! I did carefully choose quality components and spent extra money to build a quality system. When it just goes to a black screen for no apparent reason or No Tuners Available or the error code that it can't record a channel due to no signal. These are all failures in Media Center. My old Tivo HD's NEVER gave me issues. In the 6 years I had my HD's I had to reboot twice.

If any of you have suggestions I'm all ears.

I don't know if you've already bought a Tivo system. If so, then there's not much point in trying to help you with your Media Center problems (which are most likely signal or tuner problems). If you haven't already bought a Tivo system, then save your money and ask for help with your problems.

[kd6icz]

I haven't bought a Tivo system. I can't! I've got too much invested in this pile! I used to own Tivo's which I sold to family members. I was simply giving the original poster my experience coming from Tivo.

What I don't get is how it works great for a couple of weeks then for a few days I'm constantly rebooting.

As far as my signal I think it might be too hot. The original installer mentioned that so I've purchased a whole set of attenuators of various values to get it perfect. I don't know what perfect is though. I base it on my cable modem. It's currently setting at +10dBm receive signal strength. That's with a 3.5db two way splitter and 3db attenuator inline.

[barnabas1969]

Open a new thread to diagnose your signal problems. You can't base it on what you cable modem says. Each channel can have different signal strength/quality. Typically, the higher frequencies have lower strength, and the lower frequencies have higher strength. This is due to the capacitance of coax cable. Also, frequencies don't necessarily line up with channel numbers. For example, channel 100 could be on a higher frequency than channel 999.

The closer you can get the signal strength to zero dB, the better. Signal to noise ratio (aka S/N, SNR, or quality) should be in the mid-to-high 30's. 35dB for SNR is very good. Higher is better for SNR.

If you have a Ceton tuner, there is a tool that can be used to get a list of your signals for all of your channels. It is here:
http://experts.windows.com/frms/windows ... 55788.aspx

[kingwr]

I can understand all the reasons why someone would choose a WMC setup over a Tivo or other CE-oriented DVR. But c'mon guys -- we can't seriously be discussing whether a WMC is more reliable than a Tivo, or a DirecTV setup, or a cable STB, right? We all know that's just not the case. Even if your WMC runs for months without issues, there's still the rebooting, rerunning tuner setup, missing tuners, guide update failures, lost extender connections, extenders that won't boot, network snafus, and other problems inherent in the typical WMC setup that just don't exist with most CE-level devices.

[blueiedgod]

I had nothing. So two Xbox's, Ceton PCIe 6, Intel i3, 8GB RAM, Intel motherboard, 3TB HDD, 32GB SSD, case, power supply, and DVD drive. All that added up together is $1400. A new 3TB Tivo with lifetime subscription is $1069 from Weaknees. A Tivo mini is $249 with lifetime subscription. So in my case it would have been cheaper.

Check out http://www.slickdeals.net You never, ever pay retail.

Xbox 360 = $99
Ceton IniniTV6 PCIe/ETH = $204
8 GB of RAM = $20
32GB SSD (should be free, you can't even load Win 7 on it). You need at least 64 GB = $50
3 TB hard drive = $60
Case + PSU = $40 - $50
DVD Drive = $15
i3 is not needed, get AMD for half the price (CPU+Mobo combo) $100

Everything comes out just a hair under $600. Add Win 7 $10 - $100, and you are still UNDER TiVO price.

Just so everyone here knows these prices are not true. I went to that website and it either said this deal has expired or came back with a much higher price.

These are past historical prices. Just because you didn't catch the deal at the time, doesn't mean it is not the true price.

Paying retail is silly. You don't go to the dealership and pay full asking MSRP on a car, do you?

Edit: Current price for Echo is $109, and Ceton InifniTV6 is $229. Don't tell me it is not true next week. That is the nature of "deals"