Wage Discussion Thread

[kingwr]

Have you considered the possibility that the minimum wage was increased because of inflation

That's like saying that increases in the CO2 levels in the atmosphere are the result of rising temperature, rather than the cause of it. Both postulations are supported by the data, but only one has a solid theory behind it. Same with inflation following the minimum wage -- it is the postulation supported by the data that has a solid theory behind it.

So, are you saying that if we didn't have a minimum wage in the first place, that inflation wouldn't have happened? If so, then I can't wait for your explanation of how that would be possible.

I didn't say anything of the sort -- In fact I have a hard time seeing how you get that from my post at all. I am saying that because A follows B, doesn't mean A caused B (or B caused A). You have to have a working theory to support such as supposition.

[blueiedgod]

I didn't say anything of the sort -- In fact I have a hard time seeing how you get that from my post at all. I am saying that because A follows B, doesn't mean A caused B (or B caused A). You have to have a working theory to support such as supposition.

The CO2 analogy is probably not the best. This is the current working theory:

The increase in the industrial activity resulted in slow rise of the temperature, however, the slow rise caused the ice to melt, which held tremendous amounts of trapped CO2. This caused the runaway rise in temperature that we are seeing now.

The rise in CO2 causes further rise in temperatures resulting in more ice melting, and further increase in temperature. Once all the ice at the polar caps has melted, there will be no longer the density differential in the sea water to support the gulf stream, which right now allows most of the eastern US coast, as well as England, and most of northern Europe to remain habitable. Once the gulf stream stops, those areas will go through a dramatic climate change. We are talking real arctic temperatures (think Saskatchewan or Siberia), which will cause the ice to start forming again.

It will take approximately 2000 years to get the gulf stream working again. In the mean time, because of the reduction of habitable land, there will be global starvation, and massive population decreases. We as a human race will probably revert to the dark ages, and only the strongest, most cruel will survive (think Barbarian)

So, yes, human activity CO2 played a factor as the initiator, but once the process started, there is very little puny humans can really do.

If you don't think the messing with the atmosphere does not affect the global temperatures, all you have to do is look at history.
1815: Mount Tambora volcano erupts. The largest volcanic eruption in the modern history. Spews ash, and particulates in the atmosphere, resulting in global temperature drop by about 1°F. One could say; "What does 1°F drop mean?"

1815-1816 is known as year without summer. Winter lows in NYC were -26°F
May 1816 Frost killed most of the crops. NYC had daytime temperatures below freezing (this is MAY in NYC!)
June 1816: 12" of snow in Quebec City, snow fall in Massachusetts.
July and August 1816: River Ice was observed in Pennsylvania.

The list goes on and on and on.

So, if anyone does not believe that whatever we put in the atmosphere directly affects them, all they have to do, is look back in history.

Winter of 1942 was one of the coldest, recently, most likely from all the ash and soot produced by the war efforts in Europe in 1941.

[kingwr]

^ Just to note that the above "working theory" comes from a movie, and not climatologists, right?

[lithium630]

The earth is no warmer now than it has been 1000 times throughout history. I believe the average temperature has dropped for several years in a row.

[barnabas1969]

The earth is no warmer now than it has been 1000 times throughout history.

Yeah... the periods after those periods of warming are called ice ages. People/animals die when the earth is covered in ice.

I believe the average temperature has dropped for several years in a row.

No, actually 2012 was the warmest ever.

[blueiedgod]

^ Just to note that the above "working theory" comes from a movie, and not climatologists, right?

Yes, the movie called science.

[blueiedgod]

The earth is no warmer now than it has been 1000 times throughout history. I believe the average temperature has dropped for several years in a row.

Whether you believe or not, does not change the facts.

[bmblank]

Except when facts are contradictory to other facts.

[richard1980]

The earth is no warmer now than it has been 1000 times throughout history. I believe the average temperature has dropped for several years in a row.

The global average temperature fell from 2010 to 2011, but rose from 2011 to 2012. The available data for 2013 suggests that the global average temperature for 2013 will be higher than 2012.

No, actually 2012 was the warmest ever.

No, actually 2012 was only the warmest year on record for the US. However, 2012's global average temperature was only the 10th warmest on record. 2010 was actually the warmest year on record. And to nit-pick, there's a big difference between "on record" and "ever". "Ever" includes all of history, not just the past 100-150 years.

Whether you believe or not, does not change the facts.

The only facts that exist are the data about what has already happened. Future predictions are not facts.

[lithium630]

Whether you believe or not, does not change the facts.

Global warming assumptions are not facts.

[Embiggens]

Should we round out this thread with a gun control debate?

[IownFIVEechos]

Should we round out this thread with a gun control debate?

Don't forget health care and education reform?

[werds]

So more on topic what are your thoughts on menial labor tasks mostly filled by illegal immigrants?

[lithium630]

So more on topic what are your thoughts on menial labor tasks mostly filled by illegal immigrants?

There is no reason why the positions need to be filled by ILLEGAL immigrants. If more workers are needed, more could be allowed in legally. I understand the post was sarcastic but I'm trying to distract myself from my extremely moody 6 year old.

[STC]

Up next: Crop rotation in the 19th century!

[richard1980]

It's not like there's much else to discuss...

[barnabas1969]

Richard is correct. I shouldn't have said "ever". I should have said "in the recorded history of average US temperatures." Not sure about the rest of his post. Sorry, but I'm drunk right now, and I don't feel like researching it.

News flash: I'm not drunk as often as STC would like to portray... actually, it's been a rare occurrence in the last few months due to the fact that I've been on some prescription drugs that don't mix well with alcohol (and, no, even if you think it's funny... the drugs don't reduce my mental capacity).

And... I'd like to add... that I would really like to meet STC in person. He seems like a good guy, and I'd appreciate a fair opinion from him (on this site) based on his face-to-face impression of me. I'm actually not as much of a jerk as I sometimes appear to be. Written communications can often be misconstrued. I have a strange sense of humor, that is a fact... but I'm actually well-liked by people who take the time to know me.

[IownFIVEechos]

This is great stuff. Shift topic: Typing while under the influence, should it ever be done?

[richard1980]

Well how else do you expect me to drunk-text people?

[werds]

So more on topic what are your thoughts on menial labor tasks mostly filled by illegal immigrants?

There is no reason why the positions need to be filled by ILLEGAL immigrants. If more workers are needed, more could be allowed in legally. I understand the post was sarcastic but I'm trying to distract myself from my extremely moody 6 year old.

Half-jest. I always find this dynamic of our economy extremely interesting, where business owners complain about the inability to afford the necessary workers and how legal citizens are not always as interested in taking the available job let alone working as hard sometimes (I take this information from some of the complaints farmers and others in similar industries voice whenever some states attempt some immigration reform that results in deporting and discouraging illegals from remaining in said region).

So if we were to open up to a free market system with less regulation what would be stopping a race to the bottom in terms of wages for areas like this when even WITH regulation you already see this occurring. Would our general society still find these kind of jobs demeaning and below us and be unwilling to take the jobs on at the same rate of pay as illegal immigrants (migrant workers) tend to do?