Wage Discussion Thread

[STC]

I think a lot of full-time folks may not agree with that.

[kingwr]

I'm sure just about anyone making a living on minimum wage would not agree. But I am hoping that we are not putting decisions that have such sweeping economic repercussions in the hands of people working at minimum wage. The solution, IMO, is to create and bolster a free-market economy that competes for jobs, increasing wages for everyone, not continue to burden the recovery with more regulation and control, thus ensuring that more and more people are working at minimum wage and that all those jobs that would be below $11 or $15 an hour (that some people may actually want) simply no longer exist.

EDIT: The implication being not that people working at minimum wage are not smart, but that anyone earning a living at minimum wage would likely be too myopic to look at the issue from the standpoint of what's good for a country or an economy as a whole.

[IownFIVEechos]

Keeping with the burger talk.

The country runs like this now:

'I would gladly pay you Tuesday for a Hamburger today'

Echos are $99 bucks on Amazon still!

[lithium630]

Looks like I will be in the minority, but in my opinion the government has no business telling companies how much they should pay. Some jobs just shouldn't pay very much. If you don't like it get another job, get an education, or work hard and get promoted. People need to take care of themselves.

[STC]

^ kind of tricky if full time positions exist that pay a wage that cannot sustain acceptable living conditions. Look at the profit MacDonalds and their franchisees made this year. There certainly is room for wage tweaks so the fat cats don't get so obese.

[lithium630]

^ kind of tricky if full time positions exist that pay a wage that cannot sustain acceptable living conditions. Look at the profit MacDonalds and their franchisees made this year. There certainly is room for wage tweaks so the fat cats don't get so obese.

Who decides how much profit is too much? Businesses are cyclical. Who will pay these employees when the market turns? Maybe the government should since it forced these companies to pay more to begin with. Ask Detroit what happens when you overpay your employees.

[STC]

^ kind of tricky if full time positions exist that pay a wage that cannot sustain acceptable living conditions.

I dunno, maybe there should only be part time positions available to flip burgers, so that the workers could have other part time jobs being dentists and doctors to make up the wage.

[barnabas1969]

I really hate it when people blame "what happened to Detroit" on wages that were too high. That's what the people at the top of those companies want you to believe. What happened to Detroit is pretty simple. The fat cats at the top figured out that they could build their cars in Mexico or Canada using people who will work for less money. This didn't reduce the price of the cars they built, it just added to the fat cats' pockets that were already overflowing with cash. The same thing has happened in every manufacturing sector in America.

Now, I would agree that we could have a different minimum wage for teen-agers and such. I think my son makes plenty of money for just standing around at the movie theater (well, he does have to clean bathrooms and stuff, but still).

And, "the free market" - if really, truly allowed to be free without any kind of regulation - would be a race to the bottom with no brakes to slow it down. We need some regulation of business. The difficult part to figure out, is how much is good, and how much is too much. I certainly don't think we're at the "too much" stage in the USA.

[lithium630]

I really hate it when people blame "what happened to Detroit" on wages that were too high. That's what the people at the top of those companies want you to believe. What happened to Detroit is pretty simple. The fat cats at the top figured out that they could build their cars in Mexico or Canada using people who will work for less money. This didn't reduce the price of the cars they built, it just added to the fat cats' pockets that were already overflowing with cash. The same thing has happened in every manufacturing sector in America.

Now, I would agree that we could have a different minimum wage for teen-agers and such. I think my son makes plenty of money for just standing around at the movie theater (well, he does have to clean bathrooms and stuff, but still).

And, "the free market" - if really, truly allowed to be free without any kind of regulation - would be a race to the bottom with no brakes to slow it down. We need some regulation of business. The difficult part to figure out, is how much is good, and how much is too much. I certainly don't think we're at the "too much" stage in the USA.

I don't agree with your assessment. GM didn't just move to Mexico, it went bankrupt. Wages and pensions were just too high. In this case it was not the government's fault, but the result was the same. That's not too say that the people at the top didn't share the blame. Toyota makes most of their cars in the US. Do what's their secret? I agree SOME regulations are necessary, but much less than is out there now.

[barnabas1969]

I don't agree with your assessment. GM didn't just move to Mexico, it went bankrupt. Wages and pensions were just too high. In this case it was not the government's fault, but the result was the same. That's not too say that the people at the top didn't share the blame. Toyota makes most of their cars in the US. Do what's their secret? I agree SOME regulations are necessary, but much less than is out there now.

I'm sure that the top exec's shared some of the blame. In fact, I just saw an interview (on The Daily Show) with Ford Motor Co's CEO. He said something along the lines of, "It wasn't all the union's fault... management agreed to those terms too."

Toyota pays decent wages to their workers. But, do you think they would pay such wages if they didn't have to compete with Ford/GM/Chrysler for those people? People love to bash the unions, but they sure enjoy being paid decent wages, a 40-hour workweek, and benefits. They always seem to forget why we have those things. If we get rid of the regulatory protections that give us those things, don't expect employers to provide them for much longer. I've worked for medium or large employers ever since I was in my early 20's. And I've seen a tremendous erosion of my benefits in that time period. The big companies, their lobbyists, and the media machine (which is owned by big corporations) keep chipping away at workers' rights... and they have a large segment of our population convinced that unions and high wages are the problem for everything.

[lithium630]

I'm not a big union guy, but I do belong to one. It is vital in my public sector job. I have a good view of the good and bad aspects. You did make one of my points for me though. Toyota needs to pay liveable wages because of competition, not government wages.

[richard1980]

Richard, the minimum wage will affect companies who hire mostly minimum-wage-workers more than it will affect companies who have mostly higher-paid workers. So, it will affect the cost of a cheeseburger more than it would affect the cost of an automobile. It does not directly correlate to the value of the dollar at a 1:1 ratio.

No, it doesn't correlate at exactly 1:1 for each and every good or service that exists. Some good/services are at 1.01, while others are at 0.99, etc. However, the average correlation across the entire economy is 1:1. If you examine the entire minimum wage history (which started in 1938 at $0.25) and adjust the minimum wage levels for inflation to 1938 levels, you'll see that the purchasing power of an hour minimum wage work has remained almost flat from 1938 to 2013....which means that inflation has been counteracting the increases in minimum wage that have occurred at a near 1:1 ratio.

[barnabas1969]

....which means that inflation has been counteracting the increases in minimum wage that have occurred at a near 1:1 ratio.

Have you considered the possibility that the minimum wage was increased because of inflation, so that those workers would keep up with inflation?

[barnabas1969]

Forgot to mention that Florida's minimum wage is actually tied to the CPI.

[richard1980]

....which means that inflation has been counteracting the increases in minimum wage that have occurred at a near 1:1 ratio.

Have you considered the possibility that the minimum wage was increased because of inflation, so that those workers would keep up with inflation?

Is the glass half empty or half full? It's all a matter of perspective. Either way, it's still half a glass of water.

[kingwr]

Have you considered the possibility that the minimum wage was increased because of inflation

That's like saying that increases in the CO2 levels in the atmosphere are the result of rising temperature, rather than the cause of it. Both postulations are supported by the data, but only one has a solid theory behind it. Same with inflation following the minimum wage -- it is the postulation supported by the data that has a solid theory behind it.

[lithium630]

Have you considered the possibility that the minimum wage was increased because of inflation

That's like saying that increases in the CO2 levels in the atmosphere are the result of rising temperature, rather than the cause of it. Both postulations are supported by the data, but only one has a solid theory behind it. Same with inflation following the minimum wage -- it is the postulation supported by the data that has a solid theory behind it.

Oh man don't get me started on "global warming".

[kingwr]

Have you considered the possibility that the minimum wage was increased because of inflation

That's like saying that increases in the CO2 levels in the atmosphere are the result of rising temperature, rather than the cause of it. Both postulations are supported by the data, but only one has a solid theory behind it. Same with inflation following the minimum wage -- it is the postulation supported by the data that has a solid theory behind it.

Oh man don't get me started on "global warming".

STC, we need another thread split

[STC]

mwAQwItEjUo

[lithium630]

Those workers can live off much less money (relatively speaking) than in the past. The government is paying for their, housing, food, cell phones and even cigarettes through WIC.