Echo & Android Update

[bobbob]

shame, i fancied an echo, but the raspberry pi really has beat it all ends up from a european, not crippled by DRM, perspective. and for $35

[acraigl]

Got a tweet from Ceton this morning. Looks like they're knocking $80 off the echo today and tomorrow if you also purchase an InfiniTV.
Dumping remaining stock?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aag/&tag=ceton ... BFUFL7Q0L9
Promo code: LABORD13 at checkout for discount.

Not the first time they've done a promo on the bundle.

Sorry, no conspiracy theory today.

It's a perfect day for conspiracy theory

[Just13d]

Newegg is also selling the echo is part of its shell shockers they do everyday.

http://www.newegg.com/Special/ShellShoc ... 09022013_1

[kingwr]

"Oh, this is the worst-looking hat I ever saw. What, when you buy a hat like this I bet you get a free Echo extender, huh?" - Al Czervik

[nebulink]

No the HW issue only pertains to the upgrade scenario from WMC to Android base. Like the post said it does not effect current Echo firmware and would not have any impact at all on future firmware updates in the current WMC Extender framework.

Why don't you start shipping out preinstalled android versions on the Echo? Also, for the people that want to risk bricking their echo during an upgrade attempt let them. Mine has been sitting here pretty much untouched since the original beta in hopes for a stable solution.

I think the risk is that future updates for the "pre-installed' versions would have the same issue. Given that any 1.0 release of anything is usually not wonderful, this is likely not a viable option, either.
Decent idea, though.

Doesn't matter in the end, anyway. It was never finished and shelved, entirely from what it seems. I'd be very happy if they continued to deliver on non-android firmware and made a great, stable, feature-enhanced extender.

[/quote][/quote]

Motz clearly pointed out that the hardware issue only has to do with upgrading from WMC to Android base.

[richard1980]

I'll reply because that was my word.

I was actually talking about the forum software automatically changing the word I used.

I want them to succeed.

I think we all want Ceton to succeed. But success doesn't have to come at the expense of quality or completeness.

it kind of depends on what you mean by "owe" in this context.

By "owe", I'm largely referring to the claim by some people that Ceton owes them a firmware update, but I agree that the same logic applies to the claim that Ceton owes anybody a refund (except the people that still have time remaining on the standard return window).

You and Adam seem, at times, to be saying you shouldn't be upset at at Ceton unless they failed to meet something more akin to a legal obligation.

I don't have a problem with people being upset with Ceton, I just have a problem with one of the reasons why some people are upset with Ceton: "I'm upset with Ceton because I knew the product didn't meet my expectations when I had the opportunity to return it, but I decided to keep it anyway in the hopes that eventually Ceton would update the Echo to a point that satisfies my expectations."

[mariob33]

I see your point. I used the canceled TV service as an example simply because it is recent and relevant to this community. There are certainly better examples. Whatever happened to Mira? What about Popfly? Tag? Kin? If you don't know what those products are, it's because Microsoft killed them...after announcing them.

I know that we as the community take some ownership for being duped, but you do understand that those examples still don't make the case, right? All of those were actual products/services/initiatives that were launched, brought to market and then cancelled/discontinued by MS. Those would be more relevant to saying Ceton has decided to discontinue the Echo versus what they did with the Android hook.

IMO Ceton was wrong for continually baiting the consumer with promises of more when they probably knew (at least with the core product) that they couldn't deliver on the speculation.

What this really means is that any Goodwill that Ceton once had with the community should and will erode.

[foxwood]

I know that we as the community take some ownership for being duped,

You weren't "duped", as that implies a deliberate intention to deceive. Ceton has failed to deliver what they forecast they would be able to deliver, but it's not for want of trying.

[adam1991]

I don't have a problem with people being upset with Ceton, I just have a problem with one of the reasons why some people are upset with Ceton: "I'm upset with Ceton because I knew the product didn't meet my expectations when I had the opportunity to return it, but I decided to keep it anyway in the hopes that eventually Ceton would update the Echo to a point that satisfies my expectations."

Allow me to clarify:

Richard and I have a problem with people saying, "I'm upset with Ceton because I knew the product didn't meet my expectations when I had the opportunity to return it, but I decided to keep it anyway because Ceton told me that they would eventually update the Echo to a point I wanted, and by God that made a contractual obligation for them to fulfill no matter what, so keeping it was a no-brainer."

In today's technology world that sort of thinking is insane. Then to ACT on it the way some people have, with such a sense of entitlement without any acknowledgement that sometimes the world tosses you a curve ball, is ludicrous.

[mariob33]

I know that we as the community take some ownership for being duped,

You weren't "duped", as that implies a deliberate intention to deceive. Ceton has failed to deliver what they forecast they would be able to deliver, but it's not for want of trying.

Not sure what your definition of duped is but i consider it duped when i am led to believe certain things are possible when they aren't. Especially if the comments are timed to sway the consumer from abandoning the ship..

I saw communicated by Ceton and assumed this to be "told" that the "Echo" would have a browser, dts, support h264 and that it could do more. We were also led to believe that not all resources were singularly focused on android and that improvements were forthcoming. Not sure about your echo but mine hasn't seen anything in the form of a stabilization fix in over 6 months. Even the miracle 320 FW that was delivered was pulled back for reasons unknown to the consumer. This FW from what I understand improves some basics that bring the Echo to a stable ground. I understand not delivering Android but give me a stable WMX and ill shut up.

[adam1991]

IMO Ceton was wrong for continually baiting the consumer with promises of more when they probably knew (at least with the core product) that they couldn't deliver on the speculation.

Aye, and there's the rub. You ASS-U-ME that they knew they couldn't deliver yet continued to "bait the consumer". Why do you ASS-U-ME that? Why do you immediately jump to ASS-U-ME-ing the worst here?

Anyway, here's where the goodwill part comes in: Ceton has earned enough of our trust that we shouldn't make such assumptions. Sure, the assumption makes for great press and a good conspiracy theory, which apparently is what makes the world go around for some reason; that doesn't make it true, and it doesn't make it reasonable that we should even entertain such a conspiracy theory.

Innocent until proven guilty--that's what Ceton has earned.

Did they make mistakes in the hardware specifications, mistakes that came back to bite them in the butt? Yep. Should they be flogged for that? Nope. Because they've earned the right to make a mistake, and they didn't make the mistake with the intention of screwing over the community.

THAT'S what peeves me off--that the community immediately jumped to "they did this to us on purpose! those b@stards!" Apparently, none of y'all have ever made a mistake in judgment at any time in your lives and needed or got forgiveness.

What this really means is that any Goodwill that Ceton once had with the community should and will erode.

Please allow us to remind you of your attitude the next time you make a mistake in your professional or personal life. You'd like to think you've built up some goodwill and have earned the right to be forgiven, but because that appears not to be how YOU treat others like Ceton, you can just sit there and get fired or divorced for your mistake.

[mariob33]

I don't have a problem with people being upset with Ceton, I just have a problem with one of the reasons why some people are upset with Ceton: "I'm upset with Ceton because I knew the product didn't meet my expectations when I had the opportunity to return it, but I decided to keep it anyway in the hopes that eventually Ceton would update the Echo to a point that satisfies my expectations."

Allow me to clarify:

Richard and I have a problem with people saying, "I'm upset with Ceton because I knew the product didn't meet my expectations when I had the opportunity to return it, but I decided to keep it anyway because Ceton told me that they would eventually update the Echo to a point I wanted, and by God that made a contractual obligation for them to fulfill no matter what, so keeping it was a no-brainer."

In today's technology world that sort of thinking is insane. Then to ACT on it the way some people have, with such a sense of entitlement without any acknowledgement that sometimes the world tosses you a curve ball, is ludicrous.

So you and Richard don't believe in the premiss of Goodwill? In my business this is worth more than you would think. It's used as a barometer of what's possible in the future.

[adam1991]

I know that we as the community take some ownership for being duped,

You weren't "duped", as that implies a deliberate intention to deceive. Ceton has failed to deliver what they forecast they would be able to deliver, but it's not for want of trying.

Not sure what your definition of duped is but i consider it duped when i am led to believe certain things are possible when they aren't. Especially if the comments are timed to sway the consumer from abandoning the ship..

So the entire root of the screaming and foot-stomping is that some people can't *not* see conspiracy theories everywhere. Some people frame what they see through conspiracy-colored glasses.

Anyway, you were led to believe certain things were possible when it turned out they weren't. That's "duped"? Then you really don't know what "duped" means:

dupe (verb): to make a dupe of; deceive; delude; trick.

Again, your conspiracy-colored glasses make you ASS-U-ME that you were intentionally deceived, deluded, tricked. You ASS-U-ME that Ceton set out to deceive, delude, trick you.

Is there *any* room in your conspiracy-filled world for the idea that Ceton didn't realize until after their announcement that they couldn't deliver what they had talked about?

Because that would be what's called an "honest mistake"--I know, there's no room in your world for such a beast, but still. That Ceton didn't fulfill their goals for the Echo the way they wanted does not equal "they duped us!"

I'm sure you can tell us without question that you have never personally committed to things you couldn't deliver, or ever made a mistake.

[mariob33]

IMO Ceton was wrong for continually baiting the consumer with promises of more when they probably knew (at least with the core product) that they couldn't deliver on the speculation.

Aye, and there's the rub. You ASS-U-ME that they knew they couldn't deliver yet continued to "bait the consumer". Why do you ASS-U-ME that? Why do you immediately jump to ASS-U-ME-ing the worst here?

Anyway, here's where the goodwill part comes in: Ceton has earned enough of our trust that we shouldn't make such assumptions. Sure, the assumption makes for great press and a good conspiracy theory, which apparently is what makes the world go around for some reason; that doesn't make it true, and it doesn't make it reasonable that we should even entertain such a conspiracy theory.

Innocent until proven guilty--that's what Ceton has earned.

Did they make mistakes in the hardware specifications, mistakes that came back to bite them in the butt? Yep. Should they be flogged for that? Nope. Because they've earned the right to make a mistake, and they didn't make the mistake with the intention of screwing over the community.

THAT'S what peeves me off--that the community immediately jumped to "they did this to us on purpose! those b@stards!" Apparently, none of y'all have ever made a mistake in judgment at any time in your lives and needed or got forgiveness.

What this really means is that any Goodwill that Ceton once had with the community should and will erode.

Please allow us to remind you of your attitude the next time you make a mistake in your professional or personal life. You'd like to think you've built up some goodwill and have earned the right to be forgiven, but because that appears not to be how YOU treat others like Ceton, you can just sit there and get fired or divorced for your mistake.

Ah. I GOT IT. No matter what you choose to defend Ceton and their business practices. You are okay with them providing misleading information/promises to the community timed in execution with consumers having to decide to hold or return and bear no ramifications because we "ASS-U-ME". I think what you "ASS-U-ME" is that the community response will not have an impact to the bottom line. Unfortunately you can't "ASS-U-ME" this in today's world. Especially for a company whose significant portion of revenue comes from the backing of members of this community.

I can tell you this in my profession you don't get to make the same mistakes Ceton has with execution without ramifications. Serious ramifications! As a matter of fact you "ASS-U-ME" forgiveness but it normally comes with a significant $$ cost..

[adam1991]

Ah. I GOT IT. No matter what you choose to defend Ceton and their business practices.

Nope. I give them some leeway. To YOU, that may be "defending that they duped me!" You would be wrong, but only because the premise you started with--that they intentionally deceived, deluded, tricked you--is wrong.

Once you start with a bad foundation, everything you build on that is fundamentally incorrect.

But no matter what YOU do, you ASS-U-ME the worst--that Ceton conspired, gleefully wringing their hands and cackling at the thought of "duping" you.

You have exactly no room in your world for any gray. It's black, or it's white. "They duped me, and anything you say that disagrees with me means you're defending them duping me!!!" I can't count the number of bad assumptions you started with to build that fallacious argument.

You are okay with them providing misleading information/promises to the community timed in execution with consumers having to decide to hold or return and bear no ramifications because we "ASS-U-ME".

You keep trying to defend your assumptions by continuing to talk about the timing--all without context, all without giving Ceton any benefit of the doubt that they have, without question, earned.

If you're going to center everything you say around that conspiracy-minded assumption, then there's no discussing things with you. You've already made up your mind, you started in your black-and-white world with the assumption that Ceton set out specifically to screw you, and you are framing everything around that.

You are denying any goodwill Ceton has earned over the years, any benefit of the doubt they have earned in the community. And--now here's the funny part--the community is coming back onto YOU for denying that and for trying to make your personal problems all Ceton's fault.

Did Ceton screw up? Yes. How many times can I say that to you? Do you ignore that? Yes, because it doesn't support your conspiracy theories.

I think what you "ASS-U-ME" is that the community response will not have an impact to the bottom line. Unfortunately you can't "ASS-U-ME" this in today's world. Especially for a company whose significant portion of revenue comes from the backing of members of this community.

I think what you ASS-U-ME is that the community doesn't (or shouldn't) give Ceton any benefit of the doubt, simply because you find yourself incapable of doing so. I think what you ASS-U-ME is that any backlash from the community must be what you think it should be--the complete failure of their business and the closing of their doors--just for DARING to reach for a goal and not make it, and for sharing with the community that goal and their reach.

Yes, how dare they try to do something! Even worse, how dare they tell the community what they're trying to do!

I can tell you this in my profession you don't get to make the same mistakes Ceton has with execution without ramifications. Serious ramifications! As a matter of fact you "ASS-U-ME" forgiveness but it normally comes with a significant $$ cost..

I doubt you, but whatever. Anyway, are you comparing your super-secret-spy profession with the WMC community? Really?

I don't care if you planned your kitchen remodeling or whatever around the Echo. Not even Ceton is responsible for your abnormal behavior, expectations, and conspiracy theories.

[adam1991]

IMO Ceton was wrong for continually baiting the consumer with promises of more when they probably knew (at least with the core product) that they couldn't deliver on the speculation.

Aye, and there's the rub. You ASS-U-ME that they knew they couldn't deliver yet continued to "bait the consumer". Why do you ASS-U-ME that? Why do you immediately jump to ASS-U-ME-ing the worst here?

Anyway, here's where the goodwill part comes in: Ceton has earned enough of our trust that we shouldn't make such assumptions. Sure, the assumption makes for great press and a good conspiracy theory, which apparently is what makes the world go around for some reason; that doesn't make it true, and it doesn't make it reasonable that we should even entertain such a conspiracy theory.

Innocent until proven guilty--that's what Ceton has earned.

Did they make mistakes in the hardware specifications, mistakes that came back to bite them in the butt? Yep. Should they be flogged for that? Nope. Because they've earned the right to make a mistake, and they didn't make the mistake with the intention of screwing over the community.

THAT'S what peeves me off--that the community immediately jumped to "they did this to us on purpose! those b@stards!" Apparently, none of y'all have ever made a mistake in judgment at any time in your lives and needed or got forgiveness.

What this really means is that any Goodwill that Ceton once had with the community should and will erode.

Please allow us to remind you of your attitude the next time you make a mistake in your professional or personal life. You'd like to think you've built up some goodwill and have earned the right to be forgiven, but because that appears not to be how YOU treat others like Ceton, you can just sit there and get fired or divorced for your mistake.

Ah. I GOT IT. No matter what you choose to defend Ceton and their business practices. You are okay with them providing misleading information/promises to the community timed in execution with consumers having to decide to hold or return and bear no ramifications because we "ASS-U-ME". I think what you "ASS-U-ME" is that the community response will not have an impact to the bottom line. Unfortunately you can't "ASS-U-ME" this in today's world. Especially for a company whose significant portion of revenue comes from the backing of members of this community.

I can tell you this in my profession you don't get to make the same mistakes Ceton has with execution without ramifications. Serious ramifications! As a matter of fact you "ASS-U-ME" forgiveness but it normally comes with a significant $$ cost..

Is there *any* room in your conspiracy-filled world for the idea that Ceton didn't realize until after their announcement that they couldn't deliver what they had talked about?

[STC]

Could we all keep tabs on the caps please.
It's getting tiring. No need to shout. Emphasize words with italics perhaps making them bold too. It's really much better to read, keeps temperatures down and still gets your point across.

[erko]

The echo has been a flawed product from the start. The community has been patient due to Ceton's history of responsivity and general "caring" of this niche community. The entire echo experience has flipped the perception of Ceton being part of the community, to just being another typical corporation(which isn't necessarily a bad thing, however). It's employees have clearly been forbidden from engaging the community except under rediculously tight controls, they don't even say they've been forbidden to talk. I think the onus is now on Ceton to participate or stop pretending they care for this niche community. Yes, there is no legal obligation to produce a better product and they have met there end of the deal by delivering something with a return window, but they shouldn't expect a niche community and ceton following to take it, unless they're willing to explain themselves. Ceton, as a participant in this community, is the one with a conflict of interest, so it's on them to explain themselves so people don't feel cheated. I bought the Ceton hoping to get an Xbox replacement, it sucks at that. Responsivity during fast forward and rewind and skipping with the 2 second delay on audio for any skip is beyond frustrating, i'd rather not have video and still hear audio. I was led to believe that it would be updated at a minimum to Xbox performance. Anyways, I've sunk my money and had I known this would have lasted so long I never would have purchased it. I'm not looking for anything from them, but for people to be annoyed by the complaints about this product is preposterous. Some of you are clearly assuming Ceton has made decisions in the best interest for us the consumers and just unable to deliver. Now this assumption is crazier than assuming they duped us. We should all just take our lumps, and keep searching for the perfect solution, clearly at this point Ceton shows know signs they can/will deliver.

Props to them for trying, but no pity for them if they don't communicate.

[adam1991]

The echo has been a flawed product from the start.

Care to define that more clearly?

Are you talking hardware? Software? Functionality? Customer service?

[adam1991]

for people to be annoyed by the complaints about this product is preposterous.

It's not the complaints per se. It's the torch-bearing tone underlying them, a tone which frankly is undeserved and which shows immaturity and irrationality.

One can complain without sounding like a spoiled, entitled brat.

Put the spoiled, entitled brat attitude onto a hugely first-world problem like this, and you'll get backlash. Plain and simple.