Is Ceton still Alive?

Talk with fellow members about Ceton's Media Center Extender.
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Ceton no longer participate in this forum. Official support may still be handled via the Ceton Ticket system.
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newfiend

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#21

Post by newfiend » Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:35 pm

Sammy2 wrote:
newfiend wrote:From my limited contact recently with Ceton they are hard at work on many things. From the Echo to My Media Center updates etc. Lets be honest the echo came out and kinda flopped, I think we were all hoping for more from it. And I don't think ceton wants another disappointment out there. They will deliver but not until things are fully ready and tested this time. The fact that its been really quiet lately had me wondering what was going on as well.. But I can reassure you that they are working hard at bringing us some cool stuff. Hopefully soon?!?

Sent from my Lumia 920 using Board Express.
How can you do that? Unless you work for ceton you are speaking for them.
I have friends at the company. :D I contacted one of them recently because I was wondering what was up as well. While he could not provide any details as to what is going on his comment was very encouraging to say the least. :thumbup:

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#22

Post by Sammy2 » Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:25 pm

Well "Hopefully soon" then!

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#23

Post by reggie14 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:03 am

ajhieb wrote:Instead they chose not to split the code, so we don't see updates until Android is ready. I understand from a development standpoint why they wouldn't want to split the code... it can be a huge PITA, but as a consumer, I'd rather have some updates to improve the stability, while I'm waiting for Android.
Sure, but this was/is a change in direction. The original plan for Android seemed to be that there were two codebases, and two teams. It appears as though they've gone all-in on the Android environment, and there's no one left developing the "regular" firmware. Was that just for the extra functionality they could bring to the table, or did they run into performance roadblocks that they think can be resolved only under Android?

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#24

Post by reggie14 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:16 am

blueiedgod wrote:I am purely speculating, but if could be that in order to make MKV's work, they have to get Android running, and then integrate that into the GUI, so that to the end user it will transparent, but in reality when you choose to playback content that is not compatible with what Microsoft allowed them to do under the license agreement, it will switch to Android and basically be that "android stick HTPC" that you can buy on ebay. But, all without having the end user to switch interfaces.
I don't think there's any reason to think that there's something the extender licensing agreement that prohibits MKVs, or prohibits support of anything else for that matter. The problem is that WMC does the A/V splitting on the server, as opposed to the extender. So, the extender never sees the container format- WMC takes care of that. The problem is, WMC doesn't support MKVs out of the box, and the current add-ons are done in a kludgy way.
shortcut3d wrote: I actually think its the other way around based on the screen shots. They are building there own version of MyMovies/Media Browser/Plex/XBMC. Basically, a client / server model that appears to be largely based on their own My Media Center app. So Android will be the primary OS with the guide, recorded TV, Movies, etc. driven by the server. When you choose to play recorded TV or live TV it will present it in a full screen "window" that's actually WMC extender RDP session.
First of all, remember that RDP is used to stream the interface, not the video.

I kind of wonder if Ceton is going to just try to bypass RDP entirely. It seems like they could create their own interface, separate from WMC, that still contains all the information from WMC. They've done a lot of that already with the My Media Center app. They could create the GUI as an Android app, which just pulls down information from the WMC server. When you play a video, it could just stream the file straight off the computer, moving the responsibility of splitting to the extender and working around WMC's normal format limitations (as well as the RDP compatibility problem with Win8). I don't really understand how PlayReady DRM works, though, so maybe that would gum it up.

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Motz

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#25

Post by Motz » Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:59 am

newfiend wrote:
Sammy2 wrote:
newfiend wrote:From my limited contact recently with Ceton they are hard at work on many things. From the Echo to My Media Center updates etc. Lets be honest the echo came out and kinda flopped, I think we were all hoping for more from it. And I don't think ceton wants another disappointment out there. They will deliver but not until things are fully ready and tested this time. The fact that its been really quiet lately had me wondering what was going on as well.. But I can reassure you that they are working hard at bringing us some cool stuff. Hopefully soon?!?

Sent from my Lumia 920 using Board Express.
How can you do that? Unless you work for ceton you are speaking for them.
I have friends at the company. :D I contacted one of them recently because I was wondering what was up as well. While he could not provide any details as to what is going on his comment was very encouraging to say the least. :thumbup:
Very true, a little twitter mentions on my personal account go a long ways. My tweetdeck is open the 12-14 hours I am in the office every day. This month has been very exciting thus far that is for sure.
I Write, Code, and Tweet

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#26

Post by shortcut3d » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:48 am

Correct. Extenders use a special RDP session that allows the video to be played / rendered directly on the Extender and not by the PC. I'm not sure if the RDP session is responsible for enforcing HDCP compliance allowing for Playready DRM playback. If it is then Win8 support may be limited to copy-freely content. I don't have Win8 so I don't know where the Echo fails. This is all speculation.

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#27

Post by Sammy2 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:10 pm

Motz wrote:
Very true, a little twitter mentions on my personal account go a long ways. My tweetdeck is open the 12-14 hours I am in the office every day. This month has been very exciting thus far that is for sure.
How about "retweeting" that here! I looked and didn't see what you are talking about.

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#28

Post by Dean L. Surkin » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:19 pm

Motz wrote:Very true, a little twitter mentions on my personal account go a long ways. My tweetdeck is open the 12-14 hours I am in the office every day. This month has been very exciting thus far that is for sure.
I just checked those two Twitter feeds you mentioned, and the most recent posts shown are June 7th and June 6th.

While this has been an exciting month for you developers, it's been a frustrating one for users like me. I think I'm not alone in asking that your company reconsider just how much information to release--something like whether you have an in-house alpha, whether you are feature-complete, etc.

Unfortunately, I'm reminded of how, 50 years ago, I responded to my mother's question "did you clean your room" by saying "I'm working on it."
Dean L. Surkin

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#29

Post by ajhieb » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:50 pm

reggie14 wrote:
ajhieb wrote:Instead they chose not to split the code, so we don't see updates until Android is ready. I understand from a development standpoint why they wouldn't want to split the code... it can be a huge PITA, but as a consumer, I'd rather have some updates to improve the stability, while I'm waiting for Android.
Sure, but this was/is a change in direction. The original plan for Android seemed to be that there were two codebases, and two teams. It appears as though they've gone all-in on the Android environment, and there's no one left developing the "regular" firmware. Was that just for the extra functionality they could bring to the table, or did they run into performance roadblocks that they think can be resolved only under Android?
This speculation is based on what? Other speculation?

Admittedly, I'm speculating about the lack of firmware updates being a result of Ceton's policy to not release Android in an unfinished state, and Ceton making the decision to not branch (fork, whatever terminology you prefer) their firmware into Android/non-Android branches but at least it's reinforced by a few things...

1) Someone from Ceton did state on here that they weren't going to release Android firmware until it was "ready"
2) Not branching their codebase requires fewer resources and and on the surface appears to be the logical choice anyway.
3) Someone from Ceton did state on here that they are still actively developing Extender functionality and that they aren't dumping it for Android.
4) Andoid's stated purpose was to deliver the promised web browser and to circumvent the Win8 "limitation" and allow the Echo to function with Win8. Everything else beyond that is just guessing.

So knowing that, your theory is still a possibility, but would mean that Ceton has been lying to us.

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#30

Post by allensbad » Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:04 pm

Ceton should man up and take back the echo's of those who don't want to wait for Android.
I bought a WMC Extender, If I wanted an Android device that’s what I would have bought.

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#31

Post by Diverge » Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:04 pm

shortcut3d wrote:Correct. Extenders use a special RDP session that allows the video to be played / rendered directly on the Extender and not by the PC. I'm not sure if the RDP session is responsible for enforcing HDCP compliance allowing for Playready DRM playback. If it is then Win8 support may be limited to copy-freely content. I don't have Win8 so I don't know where the Echo fails. This is all speculation.
That's false. Win 8 works fine w/ copy-once content w/ the echo. The problem was there is no menu overlays, ect, to see what you're doing, but once TV was playing it played fine in most cases (just the usual echo quirks).

edit: on side note, too bad there is still no info on the progress of the echo. It's on sale for fathers day weekend. But anyone who's done their homework would want to stay away. Dunno why they'd have a sale of it in it's current state.

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#32

Post by Sammy2 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:14 pm

Exactly. I want a couple more extenders for my house but even at $129 I did not bite.

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#33

Post by shortcut3d » Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:29 pm

Diverge wrote:
shortcut3d wrote:Correct. Extenders use a special RDP session that allows the video to be played / rendered directly on the Extender and not by the PC. I'm not sure if the RDP session is responsible for enforcing HDCP compliance allowing for Playready DRM playback. If it is then Win8 support may be limited to copy-freely content. I don't have Win8 so I don't know where the Echo fails. This is all speculation.
That's false. Win 8 works fine w/ copy-once content w/ the echo. The problem was there is no menu overlays, ect, to see what you're doing, but once TV was playing it played fine in most cases (just the usual echo quirks).

edit: on side note, too bad there is still no info on the progress of the echo. It's on sale for fathers day weekend. But anyone who's done their homework would want to stay away. Dunno why they'd have a sale of it in it's current state.
Thanks for the clarification. So that does lend some validity to Ceton most likely replacing the entire UI with Android and simply launching the stream for TV playback as necessary.

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#34

Post by th3Pil0t » Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:37 pm

Sammy2 wrote:
Motz wrote:
Very true, a little twitter mentions on my personal account go a long ways. My tweetdeck is open the 12-14 hours I am in the office every day. This month has been very exciting thus far that is for sure.
How about "retweeting" that here! I looked and didn't see what you are talking about.
He did say 'personal account'.

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#35

Post by reggie14 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:18 pm

ajhieb wrote: This speculation is based on what? Other speculation?
Isn't that the best kind? :)

It's certainly speculation to think they're "dumping" the current firmware for Android-based firmware, but I think there's a lot of reason to think that's what's going on. That being said, it's really hard to keep track of when things were said, and who said them.

The State of the Echo #3 post said they were working on "a complete integration of Windows Media Center in Android." This sounds like a lot more than what they were originally thinking. They never came out and said this, but I think when they initially talked about bringing Android to the Echo they imaged a simple port of Android separate from the WMC code. Then they decided that they could do much more. Again, they didn't come out and say this, although I think they came pretty close in a post either here or on AVS.

So, I think they originally viewed Android as a separate project. I think their plans changed, and they now view Android as at least the underlying OS for the new version of the extender code. It's a bit more up in the air how far they're going to take that. Are they doing the equivalent of an OS swap and porting over the WMC extender code? Or, are they completely re-writing the WMC interface as an Android app?

I'm inclined to think its the latter for two reasons. First, some of the screenshots they posted really, really looked like an Android app. The bottom one was the main example, showing something that looks awfully similar to the stock Android file handler pop-up. More generally, they just don't look like the WMC interface. I suppose it could be a WMC theme, though. The second reason I think they might be getting away from the regular WMC extender interface code is because they've promised Win8 support. That either means they're supporting the new version of RDP (which is certainly possible), or they're bypassing RDP entirely by running the interface in Android on the client, rather than streaming it over RDP from the server.

The major thing that contradicts this was I vaguely remember seeing a post from someone that claimed to have read a post from one of the Ceton guys (that's right, two levels of indirection) saying the "new" firmware will still work with any WMC add-ons you have. It doesn't seem like that would be the case if they dumped the WMC interface for an Android app. It doesn't, however, preclude changing the underlying operating system underneath the WMC extender code.

Anyways, I think you're right and in the past they did say they were continuing to develop the non-Android firmware. But, if memory serves, that was a long time ago. Plans may have changed. That doesn't mean they lied.

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newfiend

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#36

Post by newfiend » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:22 pm

th3Pil0t wrote:
Sammy2 wrote:
Motz wrote:
Very true, a little twitter mentions on my personal account go a long ways. My tweetdeck is open the 12-14 hours I am in the office every day. This month has been very exciting thus far that is for sure.
How about "retweeting" that here! I looked and didn't see what you are talking about.
He did say 'personal account'.

^^^Exactly... Basically this thread is a "Is Ceton still Alive?" thread. Well I can confirm that they are indeed still alive. As well as a couple posts from people that work at the company posting here as well is a good sign..No?
I know we all want updates both verbal and software.. but things take time.. Better to get it right prior to release than to release too early and have a huge mess. Keep the faith.. things will get better. :)

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#37

Post by ajhieb » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:23 pm

Anyways, I think you're right and in the past they did say they were continuing to develop the non-Android firmware. But, if memory serves, that was a long time ago. Plans may have changed. That doesn't mean they lied.
Ceton said this a few weeks ago...

http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/vie ... 472#p52472

It was in response to people (myself included) grumbling about not getting any firmware updates recently.

So my point still stands.. The most likely reason that we haven't gotten any firmware updates is because they aren't releasing *anything* until Android is "ready." That doesn't mean that they aren't working on the base Extender improvements or that they've abandoned the WMC interface (they've specifically stated that they are still working on it)

So if we take everything that Ceton has told us recently at face value then the most reasonable explanation is that we aren't getting firmware updates because we aren't getting *any* updates until Android is ready. The only way we *could* get updates to the Extender without getting partial Android updates is if they branched firmware development into two branches, (one that includes Android, and one that doesn't) and that would require more resources all so they could continue to hear more grumbling at every release (even if it was just "where's android? You promised us Android was coming?!?")

So while I tend to agree that Android looks like it will be playing a bigger role in the use of the Echo than Ceton originally envisioned, I don't think there is anything concrete to point to Ceton abandoning development of WMC Extender functionality, but Ceton is on record saying they haven't.

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#38

Post by gyrene2083 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:35 pm

Crap, I really wish I would have read this before I bought the Echo 2 weeks ago. I bought the InfiniTV 6 and echo together, and love the 6, the echo, well not being able to play certain videos, and trying to explain to my 12 year old that he can't see netflix through this. Conversation goes like this;

"Dad this is cool. So we don't need the cablebox anymore, and this is supposed to show everything from the HTPC in the living room?"
"Yes son."
"Well, then how come I can't play certain videos? and how come I can play netflix in the livingroom but can't play it on here?"
"How about ice cream, you want Ice cream, son?"
"No, I want to see Netflix."
"Tell you what, you little squatter, once you get a job and work for the company that made this then you can tell me why it doesn't work."

Then there was laughter, and we got ice cream. I'm not sure the conversation will go that way with the wife.
-Semper Fi,
gyrene2083

reggie14

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#39

Post by reggie14 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:22 am

ajhieb wrote: Ceton said this a few weeks ago...
http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/vie ... 472#p52472
Great. Thanks for the link. I remember reading that now, I just forgot how it was worded.

But to me, that still sounds like they've stepped away from the old firmware and are instead focused on the Android-based firmware moving forward. It doesn't seem like the problems are with the base extender technology. At least, when I had my Echo it seemed like most of the problems were with media playback (which I imagine is largely dictated by the Freescale drivers and software), or were limitations of the WMC architecture itself. I'm sure they're working on the base extender improvements too, I just didn't see things that were glaringly obvious problems there.
ajhieb wrote: So while I tend to agree that Android looks like it will be playing a bigger role in the use of the Echo than Ceton originally envisioned, I don't think there is anything concrete to point to Ceton abandoning development of WMC Extender functionality, but Ceton is on record saying they haven't.
I didn't mean to imply that at all- I was just trying to say they were changing the way they supported WMC extender functionality. I was trying to so they were abandoning the old firmware in favor of Android-based firmware. I agree that Motz's message is pretty clear, though- they're not rewriting the code that provides the interface to WMC. Still, they seem to be doing something pretty different with the non-recorded-TV playback support, based on the screenshots. Maybe that part of the interface drops out into an Android app.

I'm pretty happy I returned my Echo when I did, since this is taking a lot longer to resolve than I expected, but I'm still interested to see where Ceton goes with this. In the meantime I still have my SageTV system to use. WMC Is almost as dead as SageTV is at this point, but I think there's some real potential in this move to Android.

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#40

Post by SammyB428 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:11 pm

In my frustration with Echo, I loaded Raspbmc onto a Raspberry Pi ($39 which includes hardware decoding licenses) and sat in utter amazement. A cheap little device running freeware was outperforming my $180 Echo. Raspbmc is now teasing a "special announcement" for July. Is it too much to hope for Echobmc?

http://www.raspbmc.com/2013/06/raspbmcs ... fications/

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