Total noob HTPC/DVR build, need advice!

[Patton]

Posted over in AVS as well, but thought I'd ask you guys since you all built around WMC:

Long time reader, first time poster. Have become fed up with TWC ridiculous fees and even worse equipment, so I am considering my first build ever. Most of this is pretty foreign to me, since I've been an Apple person since the old IIgs, so I've never looked into tinkering too much with hardware. I do have more experienced friends who have offered to lend a hand, and I'm a quick learner, so I think I can pull this off. So far, these are my goals:

-Build an HTPC that will be used specifically for watching and recording live HD cable. As of right now, find the Ceton InfiniTV 4 PCIe very appealing. The only other thing I'm considering is trying to integrate Netflix and/or Amazon video into WMC if at all possible.

-Build it so that I can use an extender in the future. At my current residence I don't have a wired network, but down the road I will, and I guess I can always hold out hope wireless technology will progress exponentially in the next few years. I have 2 360s just begging to be used as extenders, but that can wait.

-Must be as bullet proof as possible for the WAF (side note, this abbreviation cracks me up everytime, well done). Since I won't be ripping movies, using torrent, or doing ANY gaming on the machine, is this a realistic goal? I probably won't even mess with commercial removal, though I'm not against simple tinkering like adding the logos to the guide, and at most trying to figure out how to use Remote Potato(which I know nothing about other than it seems cool concept wise). The only other thing I would be interested in is potentially using a smart phone or tablet as a controller some of the time, but this and Remote Potato are not requirements. My dream is to set it up, lock it into media mode, stuff it in my media console, and never touch it again. I know that's crazy talk, but I'm hoping that since I'm not trying to do anything too crazy, that can be accomplished.

-Was considering adding BluRay as a requirement, but with how cheap stand alone players are these days, and my lack of interest in ripping or burning, is it even worth it?

-Considering I have a couple 360s already, what is the best way to connect the HTPC to the TV? Is it best to connect it straight to the TV? Or just use the 360 as an extender into the TV? I think I've read that it's better to just use the 360, but that seems like a waste of power?

-From what I've read, I think I want to go the i3 3225 route, but that's coming from a very naive place in regards to my knowledge, so I'm up for any suggestions. I just don't want issues like stuttering feeds, or dropped frames in recordings, or just overall crashes, and this seemed like the most likely to give me that stable performance.

So, calculating what I could save per month on my cable bill by cutting out the DVR equiptment and service fee, I'll be saving about $30 bucks a month. Can I realistically set something up for around $500(less if possible)? I can get Windows 7 Ultimate for $30 bucks since I'm a student. Everything else I'll need to purchase, as there's not a lot I can source form my old Macs. I need equipment suggestions, as I barely even know the difference between ATX and mini ATX, etc.

In closing, I came here because you guys seem like some of the most knowledgable out there, and would be able to steer me in the right direction. Am I crazy for taking this on? Is it going to be too much for someone with little computer hardware experience? I'm pretty patient and willing to learn, and the wifey is pretty accepting of new tech, aslong as it works. Thanks so much for any help!

[foxwood]

For the setup you describe, Netflix and Amazon are the only significant issues. Getting Netflix on the PC itself is easy enough, but not on the Extenders. For Amazon, downloaded movies should work OK on both PC and Extender (Amazon Unbox adds itself to the Videos library in WMC automatically) but not streamed content. The TV stuff is very straightforward, and automated ad-skipping might not even be an option for you, because TWC seem to copy-protect just about everything, at least in some markets, so you just have to skip forward manually.

If you're going to build your own PC, you might as w we all go for Windows 7. If you buy a machine with Windows 8, it'll cost $100 to "upgrade" to Win8 Pro, which is the only way to get WMC in Win8.

[Patton]

Netflix and amazon aren't deal breakers for me, as I can access them through their own apps on the 360. My biggest hurdle coming from Macs is this prospect of actually having options hardware wise. I've become used to the "you can have any color you want, along as it's black" philosophy, so now my head is spinning with all the different brands and options. I just want something that's simple, rock solid, and won't get me killed by the wife because it craps out in the middle of Glee or something like that. At this point you are all probably thinking "why doesn't he just stick with the TWC STB then...", but frankly I'm just tired of getting raked over the coals to rent a bad product that's super slow on the guides, etc.

If you we're trying to just make a solid HTPC/DVR with the potential to use extenders in the future, and someone set you loose with a $500 or less budget, what would you buy?

[foxwood]

To hit a $500 budget, you'll have to do without an SSD - if the machine is going to be a dedicated HTPC that's not that big a deal, as fast boot times don't matter as much if you're not booting the PC.

If you figure $200 for MB & CPU, $60 for RAM, $100 for a hard drive and $200 for the InfiniTV, you're already over budget, and you still don't have a case and a remote (unless your $500 didn't include the tuner!)

[Patton]

Well, there is some flexibility in the budget, $500 was the goal, but as all good projects go, I'm not surprised I'll be over budget a bit. Is the HDHomerun a good option in place of the InfiniTV? It looks to be a bit cheaper, and three tuners is still better than the two I have now. I'd be willing to go that route aslong as I wasn't giving up quality. Let's say I capped the budget around $600, would that make this goal realistic? I'm sorry for the trouble. I honestly did try just searching for all of this info, but I couldn't find a build that was doing exactly what I want to do. All of them wanted BluRay or the ability to rip or burn, or extend to many tv's and so I'm not sure they were exactly what I was looking for.

[foxwood]

If your primary goal is TV, rather than "home theater" I'd say skip Blu-ray - you'll get more bang for you buck going standalone.

If I was pushed to stay under $500, I'd look at an AMD A6 based system. You can get a CPU/MB bundle on Newegg for under $150, say $200 with RAM. The onboard video should cope with TV okay, and you can get a 2TB drive for under $100.

The case and power as supply is where it can be hard to get things right. A simple case often comes with a power supply, but sometimes they're too loud. If you go for a small case, it may not take a standard power supply. You might want to get something basic here to start with, and look at upgrading or replacing it later.

You can get a basic Media Center remote for $15, and I'd suggest springing for a wireless keyboard - I like the IOGear - http://www.amazon.com/Multimedia-Keyboa ... B002H0BOBA , but the Logitech K400 is recommended too.

[slowbiscuit]

Well, there is some flexibility in the budget, $500 was the goal, but as all good projects go, I'm not surprised I'll be over budget a bit. Is the HDHomerun a good option in place of the InfiniTV? It looks to be a bit cheaper, and three tuners is still better than the two I have now. I'd be willing to go that route aslong as I wasn't giving up quality. Let's say I capped the budget around $600, would that make this goal realistic? I'm sorry for the trouble. I honestly did try just searching for all of this info, but I couldn't find a build that was doing exactly what I want to do. All of them wanted BluRay or the ability to rip or burn, or extend to many tv's and so I'm not sure they were exactly what I was looking for.

The HDHR Prime is a very good tuner and often on sale for $130 or so. I have one and it's been very reliable on Comcast. You should easily be able to build an AMD system for less than $600 including tuners, and might be able to get an SSD too (seen 128GB on sale for $80, or 64GB for $60 which is all you need). You'll want to use your Xboxes as extenders because TWC copy-protects everything but the local channels so you can't watch recorded content on another PC, only extenders. Definitely go with any deal you can get on Win7 Home Premium, don't bother with Win8.

[adam1991]

OK, time for me to chime in here. A couple of years ago I was right where you are--a Mac guy of many years (although with plenty of Windows experience) who never spent time in the hardware end of things, suddenly needing to build himself a 7MC box. I spent time here (well, the old "here") and poked around, and with some luck built a nice rig that seems to work--even the commercial skip.

I had some help; after I bought the components, I had a buddy help me build it all up. And I had some luck; I picked a system that doesn't exhibit what is commonly (but erroneously) referred to as the "29/59 bug". My Intel-based system with its onboard HDMI turned out to be a great choice.

It took me awhile to acquire the parts. I was very patient and very resilient. (To give you an idea of when all this happened, the HDHR Prime wasn't a product and the Ceton InfiniTV 4 was $433 shipped.)

A few months later, a buddy of mine wanted to make his own 7MC system happen. I showed him what I did, he pondered that, then he went to Micro Center and found a decent retail-built system on open-box clearance for something like $350. Not only did it have HDMI out, it also came with Windows. He added a bit of memory to it and a couple 2TB drives (wait for it), then added two InfiniTV 4 tuners (yep, he records *everything*), and away he went.

He's still happy as a clam with that rig today. I won't disagree with him one bit.

It doesn't have to be rocket science. We each went our own way, and in the end it didn't matter--we both got to the very same place. If you can find a cheap PC that has Windows with it, you can add another hard drive for recorded TV and you can add the tuner and away you go (and maybe some memory, mostly because it's very cheap and you'll want it if you do extenders). Recording and watching TV, even through extenders, is about as easy a task as you can put on the PC. It doesn't require much horsepower at all.

Says the Mac guy from 25 years back, who didn't hesitate to put a Windows box in his house because you should always use the right tool for the job.

[Patton]

I guess that's my fear a bit, is the luck aspect of things. I'd like to do as much as possible to take the luck side out of things. Hope this doesn't weird you out adam, but after reading through things on here, you were actually exactly the person I hoped would chime in, seeing as you were a Mac guy. So I appreciate your feedback. (Ha, I appreciate everyone's feedback, hope no one feels under appreciated here!) I really was interested in going the Intel route, only because it seemed like the "safe" way to go, but as I said earlier, I'm not wed to any one piece of hardware. My only stipulation is that I want to play it a bit "safe", if you will. I don't want to step out of the box and try something overly new or crazy. That being said, I believe I read somewhere that the AMD A6 is as low as one should go when looking at HTPC. I have a significantly better grasp on what I'm looking for in the Intel systems, ie. what the different integrated graphics are capable of, but I don't really have a good understanding of the minimum as far as integrated graphics go on the AMD systems. adam, I tried to find what exactly your build is, since you've seemed to had good luck, and from what I gather you're running the i3 3220T? is that correct? Do you find that it's hiccup free even without the HD4000 graphics? For I want to do what processor/MOBO combo do you guys suggest that will allow for a snappy guide inside WMC? I'll be honest, the lag and the lack of space in my Scientific Atlantic DVR are my biggest gripes outside of just feeling like I'm tossing money down the drain renting the same style equiptment I had in 2006.

Thanks so much for all of your input. I was pretty hesitant to post on here since I so clearly lack the knowledge base that you guys all do, felt like a little leaguer asking a MLB team for advice, but you guys have been great.

Side note: I'm extremely jealous of not having a Microcenter near me. If only I had thought of this when I was living in Columbus Ohio. Right now I'm in southeast NC, are there any similar types of stores that you guys suggest?

[adam1991]

yeah, I'm far from an expert on all of this, so I waited before jumping in. And yes, I knew nothing about the so-called "29/59 bug" and the requirement for a video subsystem that accommodated the frame rate switching--so that much was pure luck on my end. That all being said, that's about the *only* thing to take particular care about, and *only* if you'll be plugging the 7MC box itself in to your TV via HDMI.

If you're going to hook the 7MC box straight to the TV, be sure to have a video subsystem that handles the "29/59" thing and delivers consistent video. I will let others comment on that.

I'm running an i3 Clarkdale--whatever the formal nomenclature is. The motherboard I plugged it into is the Intel, um.....DH55TC. I must have done some homework, because 2 years ago that was the setup of choice for a multimedia/HTPC application. The chip has onboard GPU, and the motherboard is designed to take direct advantage of that. Regardless, it's hiccup-free.

There is pretty much no combination of 7MC hardware that will be anywhere near as slow or ugly as your current SA DVR. You'll be happy no matter what.

Don't forget that you'll need a Windows-suitable IR receiver and remote control.

My best advice is that no matter what you build, KISS. 7MC is rock solid, if that's all you use it for. And if you want high WAF, you will do nothing else to the box. Put the tuner in, configure it, get it going, and leave it alone. Many of us don't even install Windows updates, because we've all been burned by that at one time or another.

You say you can do Amazon and Netflix on your XBoxen; if that's the case, you might explore sticking the 7MC box out of the way and simply using your XBoxen to do the recorded TV thing. With respect to recorded TV, the extenders are full citizens and you lose no functionality. This solves some problems; XBox has more flexibility for hookup, and it handles all the video perfectly well. It also already does remote control duty. You could in theory build a simple and cheaper 7MC box without any special HD video capability, and let the XBoxen be your gateway to Media Center recorded TV goodness.

I have a 2TB drive in mine, and that seems perfectly acceptable--not that I wouldn't double that if I could, just because. On my buddy's system he installed two of them and in drive setup we ganged them together to make Windows see them as a single 4TB drive. Regardless, everyone including me will tell you to have Windows on one drive and put all your recorded TV on another drive.

If you've read my stuff you probably know that my main purpose for not going with the cableco stuff is that ReplayTV spoiled me: I require, yes require, automatic commercial skip. I won't watch TV without it. It took me awhile to wrap my head around my setup (I use the old ShowAnalyzer) and get it going correctly, but it works and works well. That's the only futzing I would have you do if you want to keep it simple, because it's a huge bang for the buck and well worth it.

Don't stress this. The more I think about it, the more I like your using XBox as your cable box and simply making a plain old 7MC machine that sits in the basement somewhere. It sure does give you much more flexibility with respect to the PC hardware you use. For example, I chose a nice looking case because it would be sitting in the living room--but if you'll be putting yours out of sight somewhere, you can buy whatever cheap/ugly case you want and save your money for the important things, like more storage, maybe an SSD for the Windows drive, a good network switch, etc.

[Patton]

So, two builds I quickly came up with, but as I don't really know what I'm doing, these may be way off base. Please comment away:
Intel Build:
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/Krv7
AMD Build:
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/KrGE

One other thought I had was the fact that I have a student discount on the mac mini, which currently specs out as follows for $550 dollars:
2.5GHz dual-core Intel i5(Turbo Boost up to 3.3GHz,3MB L3 Cache)
4GB 1600MHz DDR3
500GB 5400RPM Hard Drive
Intel HD4000 graphics
HDMI out, Thunderbolt, Firewire 800, and 4 USB3.0 ports
Wireless and bluetooth4.0 connectivity, IR receiver(though will this work if I wipe it and put Windows on?)
And Max continuous power of 85W

How hard is it to wipe it and install Windows, and how does it work? Is this a worthwhile option?

[adam1991]

You don't wipe a Mac and install Windows; you use Boot Camp Assistant to make a Windows partition, then you install Windows and boot into Windows. Apple gives you all the hardware drivers for everything (I believe even for the IR receiver), so you then install those. At that point, you have a full-on Windows machine. It's no different than any other (except you *can* boot into Macintosh if you want). It's brutally simple to do.

Keep in mind, in addition to your $550 you have to get a copy of Windows.

I forget--can 7MC store its recorded TV on an external USB drive? If it can, then the Mini is an alternative--albeit pricey. For example, I would outfit it with this:

http://www.newertech.com/products/ministackmax.php

It would be a nice looking, very low power rig. Like I said, 7MC is not about horsepower. You'd pay for the nice looking and low power, and then of course you have to acquire the tuner as well.

[slowbiscuit]

Yes, I've used an external USB drive for recordings with WMC, and had no issues.

[foxwood]

The Mac Mini should work, with the proviso that you'd have to use external storage, and you'd only have 4GB of RAM. If you go with the HDHomeRun Prime, then you don't have to worry about not being able to install a tuner card.

If you go with your own build, I'd throw a $20 DVD drive into the build. Unlike Blu-Ray, you don't need any additional software - 7MC supports DVD out of the box, and it can be handy to have on hand.

[adam1991]

The Mac Mini can take more than 4GB of RAM. And it's easy to replace.

[foxwood]

But he'll have to replace the 2 sticks of 2GB with 2 sticks of 4GB - he can't just add additional RAM.

[DanH]

A core i3 will work fine and you can pickup an older generation for less than $500....might even find one used. Add an HD Homerun Prime and a Media Center Remote and you've got everything that you need. Oh...stick to Windows 7 Home Premium or Ultimate. I would avoid Windows 8 if you intend to run non-Xbox extenders as they do not work.

Personally, I would stay away from the Mac Mini. If you have any problems, Apple will not support you in running Windows in the way other vendors will likely support their hardware running Windows.

When picking an i3 system, make sure that the chip supports HD acceleration. You probably also want to make sure that it has an HDMI output if you are going directly to a modern HDTV or A/V receiver. I have used some small form factor Gateway machines which have been reliable and are successful implementations.

For Netflix and/or Amazon integration...I would not plan on Media Center supporting that for you. Handle this either in the TV or with an app-enabled Blu-Ray player. I realize that is a lot of interfaces and switching between them is a pain in the a**, but that is the reality today. The technology is changing so fast.

I have been using Media Center for years and believe there is nothing better for recording and playback of traditional TV/HDTV. Just keep your expectation for it realistic and it will be very reliable.

[Patton]

hmm, well, seems the mac mini may be either overkill or just not a perfect tool for the job. I'm not as worried about it looking great, as I can hide the HTPC pretty well and run WMC through my Xbox360 as an extender(this gets rib of some of the display bugs I should be wary of, correct?). So, are my other two builds on the right track? is there anything I should change/you'd suggest? Anywhere I could cut some costs and still safely and easily do what I want?

[foxwood]

There's no such thing as perfect - what's perfect for you won't be for someone else. More to the point, what's perfect for you today won't be tomorrow.

At that price, the Mac Mini is a pretty good solution, given that you're leaning towards the HDHR Prime anyway. 4GB of RAM is "good enough", but if you were building from scratch, 8GB for only $20 more makes sense. That's not an option for the Mac Mini, so don't sweat it.

The only real compromise is the available disk space. USB attached storage isn't a problem, it just pushes you over budget again.

[adam1991]

There's no such thing as perfect - what's perfect for you won't be for someone else. More to the point, what's perfect for you today won't be tomorrow.

At that price, the Mac Mini is a pretty good solution, given that you're leaning towards the HDHR Prime anyway. 4GB of RAM is "good enough", but if you were building from scratch, 8GB for only $20 more makes sense. That's not an option for the Mac Mini, so don't sweat it.

More memory is always an option. With the Mac, take out the two 2GB modules, and for $50 put in two 4GB modules. Repurpose the 2GB modules, or sell them, or whatever.

It's really no big deal. Memory is cheap, cheap, cheap. That's the last thing anyone should fret over.