Will the 1080 stutter ever be fixed?

[xnappo]

In any case, this boils down to poor encoders and poor video editing practices.

Wow - that was such an interesting and informative post. Thanks so much for taking the time to explain in such detail.

xnappo

[Sammy2]

I understand that it effects every processor but if the processor is fast enough it doesn't effect my viewing pleasure so it doesn't effect me. I'm sorry if I worded it wrong.

[shortcut3d]

The 29/59 bug effects anything that doesn't have the processing power to deal with it.

It affects every video processor that touches the content, regardless of whether or not the processor has the power to play the frames stutter-free. When one frame's progressive_frame flag differs from the previous frame's progressive_frame flag, the processor must process the frame using an entirely different set of instructions than what were used to process the previous frame. How well a particular piece of hardware switches between instruction sets determines how well the video is played back. Obviously some processors are better suited for switching between instruction sets than other processors. But regardless of how well a piece of hardware can play back the video, there's another problem: the progressive_frame flag does not always accurately describe the interlace/progressive status of the frame. And that's where picture quality starts to suffer. A progressive frame marked as interlaced ends up being processed incorrectly, as does an interlaced frame that is marked as progressive. I don't care how well a piece of hardware plays back the video, there is simply no getting around the fact that a decoder that relies on the progressive_frame flag to determine what instruction set is used to process the frames will always process mis-marked frames incorrectly.

Ceton support just responded to my ticket regarding the 29/59 frame rate issue. They cited an MS kb that states the Echo is immune to the 29/59 frame rate issue. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2658140

Obviously, there is a major disagreement between Ceton and the community. I'm wondering if my issue is an HDCP problem because the only channels with the stutter are premium copy once.

[richard1980]

First, the Microsoft KB article does not mention the Echo or any other extender. So I don't know how anybody could interpret the KB to mean that the Echo (or any other extender) is immune to the 29/59 issue. Second, the subject of the article is stuttering caused by the 29/59 issue. The subject of the article is not the 29/59 issue itself. So even if the article said the Echo was immune, it would only be immune to the stuttering, not the 29/59 issue. The only possible way the Echo or any other device could be immune to the 29/59 issue is if it ignores the progressive_frame flag. In any other case, the progressive_frame flag will determine how the frame is handled during processing. Therefore, the 29/59 issue will affect the device.

A while back, erkotz claimed to have found a bug in the Microsoft EVR (Enhanced Video Renderer), and he made a few posts claiming the stuttering was caused by that bug. He also posted that extenders do not use the EVR, so they are not affected by the EVR bug. I don't know how true either of his claims are. But for the sake of argument, let's assume he identified a bug in the EVR and extenders are immune to that bug. Does that mean extenders are immune to the 29/59 issue? No. It only means extenders are immune to stuttering that is caused by the bug in the EVR. But somewhere in the MPEG decoder, the progressive_frame flag is still used to determine whether or not a frame needs to be output as interlaced or progressive. When that flag is set to the wrong value, the frame still gets processed incorrectly. Aside from that, switching between interlaced output and progressive output still takes time, and if a particular device is slow to execute the switch, frames will still be dropped...resulting in a visible stutter. So no matter what, extenders are still affected by the 29/59 issue.

I think Ceton's problem (and maybe erkotz' problem) is they have focused specifically on the EVR bug (assuming there is a bug). They are so focused on that EVR bug that they have completely ignored any other explanation for stuttering, and they've also ignored other effects of the 29/59 issue (specifically WRT interlacing/deinterlacing).

As for the theory that the stuttering is caused by an HDCP problem, that doesn't make sense. I assume you have confirmed that the stuttering coincides with changes to the frame rate listed in the "Debug: Presentation" screen in WMC. If it was an HDCP problem, you would have stuttering all the time, not just when the content changes between interlaced and progressive.

[Sammy2]

You are getting into semantics too much. Whether it is immune or not to the 29/59 bug is immaterial if it can actually deal with it and give a smooth playback.

[shortcut3d]

First, the Microsoft KB article does not mention the Echo or any other extender. So I don't know how anybody could interpret the KB to mean that the Echo (or any other extender) is immune to the 29/59 issue. Second, the subject of the article is stuttering caused by the 29/59 issue. The subject of the article is not the 29/59 issue itself. So even if the article said the Echo was immune, it would only be immune to the stuttering, not the 29/59 issue. The only possible way the Echo or any other device could be immune to the 29/59 issue is if it ignores the progressive_frame flag. In any other case, the progressive_frame flag will determine how the frame is handled during processing. Therefore, the 29/59 issue will affect the device.

A while back, erkotz claimed to have found a bug in the Microsoft EVR (Enhanced Video Renderer), and he made a few posts claiming the stuttering was caused by that bug. He also posted that extenders do not use the EVR, so they are not affected by the EVR bug. I don't know how true either of his claims are. But for the sake of argument, let's assume he identified a bug in the EVR and extenders are immune to that bug. Does that mean extenders are immune to the 29/59 issue? No. It only means extenders are immune to stuttering that is caused by the bug in the EVR. But somewhere in the MPEG decoder, the progressive_frame flag is still used to determine whether or not a frame needs to be output as interlaced or progressive. When that flag is set to the wrong value, the frame still gets processed incorrectly. Aside from that, switching between interlaced output and progressive output still takes time, and if a particular device is slow to execute the switch, frames will still be dropped...resulting in a visible stutter. So no matter what, extenders are still affected by the 29/59 issue.

I think Ceton's problem (and maybe erkotz' problem) is they have focused specifically on the EVR bug (assuming there is a bug). They are so focused on that EVR bug that they have completely ignored any other explanation for stuttering, and they've also ignored other effects of the 29/59 issue (specifically WRT interlacing/deinterlacing).

As for the theory that the stuttering is caused by an HDCP problem, that doesn't make sense. I assume you have confirmed that the stuttering coincides with changes to the frame rate listed in the "Debug: Presentation" screen in WMC. If it was an HDCP problem, you would have stuttering all the time, not just when the content changes between interlaced and progressive.

Agreed. The Microsoft KB does not specifically state the Echo is immune. I was simply relaying the message from Ceton support.

My theory, assuming the Echo is immune (because hypothetically it is not impacted by the EVR bug as an extender) is the problem is an HDCP / EDID handshake issue and NOT the 29/59 frame rate issue at all. Reason being all the symptomatic channels are copy-once. I am also experiencing other issues with copy-once like no audio, which tends to be an HDCP / EDID handshake issue.

[Sammy2]

First, the Microsoft KB article does not mention the Echo or any other extender. So I don't know how anybody could interpret the KB to mean that the Echo (or any other extender) is immune to the 29/59 issue. Second, the subject of the article is stuttering caused by the 29/59 issue. The subject of the article is not the 29/59 issue itself. So even if the article said the Echo was immune, it would only be immune to the stuttering, not the 29/59 issue. The only possible way the Echo or any other device could be immune to the 29/59 issue is if it ignores the progressive_frame flag. In any other case, the progressive_frame flag will determine how the frame is handled during processing. Therefore, the 29/59 issue will affect the device.

A while back, erkotz claimed to have found a bug in the Microsoft EVR (Enhanced Video Renderer), and he made a few posts claiming the stuttering was caused by that bug. He also posted that extenders do not use the EVR, so they are not affected by the EVR bug. I don't know how true either of his claims are. But for the sake of argument, let's assume he identified a bug in the EVR and extenders are immune to that bug. Does that mean extenders are immune to the 29/59 issue? No. It only means extenders are immune to stuttering that is caused by the bug in the EVR. But somewhere in the MPEG decoder, the progressive_frame flag is still used to determine whether or not a frame needs to be output as interlaced or progressive. When that flag is set to the wrong value, the frame still gets processed incorrectly. Aside from that, switching between interlaced output and progressive output still takes time, and if a particular device is slow to execute the switch, frames will still be dropped...resulting in a visible stutter. So no matter what, extenders are still affected by the 29/59 issue.

I think Ceton's problem (and maybe erkotz' problem) is they have focused specifically on the EVR bug (assuming there is a bug). They are so focused on that EVR bug that they have completely ignored any other explanation for stuttering, and they've also ignored other effects of the 29/59 issue (specifically WRT interlacing/deinterlacing).

As for the theory that the stuttering is caused by an HDCP problem, that doesn't make sense. I assume you have confirmed that the stuttering coincides with changes to the frame rate listed in the "Debug: Presentation" screen in WMC. If it was an HDCP problem, you would have stuttering all the time, not just when the content changes between interlaced and progressive.

Agreed. The Microsoft KB does not specifically state the Echo is immune. I was simply relaying the message from Ceton support.

My theory, assuming the Echo is immune (because hypothetically it is not impacted by the EVR bug as an extender) is the problem is an HDCP / EDID handshake issue and NOT the 29/59 frame rate issue at all. Reason being all the symptomatic channels are copy-once. I am also experiencing other issues with copy-once like no audio, which tends to be an HDCP / EDID handshake issue.

The KB article doesn't state that EVR is the issue either.

[richard1980]

You are getting into semantics too much. Whether it is immune or not to the 29/59 bug is immaterial if it can actually deal with it and give a smooth playback.

I disagree. To say that a device is immune means there are no adverse effects. Stuttering is not the only possible adverse effect, so just because a device plays the content smoothly does not make the device immune. There are still other side effects that need to be dealt with...specifically, the effects that result from improper deinterlacing. While the effect is subtle and may go unnoticed by many people, the effect is still there, and it can be detected by a good eye.

The KB article doesn't state that EVR is the issue either.

The EVR bug is something that erkotz came up with. I don't know if there is an EVR bug, but if erkotz says there is, I have no reason to doubt him.

My theory, assuming the Echo is immune (because hypothetically it is not impacted by the EVR bug as an extender) is the problem is an HDCP / EDID handshake issue and NOT the 29/59 frame rate issue at all. Reason being all the symptomatic channels are copy-once. I am also experiencing other issues with copy-once like no audio, which tends to be an HDCP / EDID handshake issue.

It's easy enough to prove. Locate some copy-freely 29/59 content and play it on the Echo. If there is no stutter, then the stutter is not due to the switching progressive_frame flag. If you can't find any copy-freely 29/59 content, the next option would be to find some copy-once non-29/59 content. If it stutters, then your theory could be correct.

[shortcut3d]

Ceton support is going down the route of my network and system being the issue. However, I've clearly stated the Xbox 360 4GB Slim in the same location does not have this issue. They have also stated the signal quality of the HD HomeRun Prime may be an issue (because macro blocking occurs due to mobile LTE device interference), however I have confirmed the symbol, signal quality and strength are all within SD's recommended range.

I've been running HDHomeRun Primes since release. I worked through signal, network and buggy firmwares to land on a very stable configuration. I tried many different HTPC configurations to address the 29/59 frame rate issue and got very close to perfect (wife could not tell, but I could). Eventually, I went to Xbox 360 4GB Slims and was very happy other than noise, IR angle, size and power consumption. The only change has been introducing the Echo.

Bottom line is the Echo is not fluid on 1080 content period. Panning is always a problem. The new beta firmware with improved H.264 performance resolved VFR issues, but 1080 H.264 is still not fluid whereas 720p works across the board for me.

[Crash2009]

Ceton support is going down the route of my network and system being the issue.

What specifics did they give you about your system and network?

[shortcut3d]

Ceton support is going down the route of my network and system being the issue.

What specifics did they give you about your system and network?

Nothing yet, I sent over the network architecture and complete system configuration this evening as requested.

[shortcut3d]

No comments on the network architecture. I did send more diagnostics to Ceton over the weekend when watching shows that stutter. I found it is not restricted to copy protected content. I found a couple ABC shows that stuttered. The response was the logs were strange but not useful. WTH!?!? I'm being asked to upload clip again...

Saturday my Echo seemed to struggle quite a bit after watching UFC 158 on pay-per-view. Not sure if its coincidence or causation. During this time it was easy to find content that stuttered, where it was really only evident on the premiums before. Several restarts of the HTPC and Echo got the system back to status quo stutter on premiums only.

[Sammy2]

How did you get PPV on WMC?

[shortcut3d]

How did you get PPV on WMC?

You can call Comcast to order PPV and they provision all boxes and cable cards on the account. This is a good tip even for Comcast STB owners wanting to watch a special event on multiple boxes.

[Sammy2]

I don't think that Charter does this but I have never ordered PPV, ever; so I'm not going to just to check it out..

[foxwood]

How did you get PPV on WMC?

If you search the guide, the PPV event will be listed on a specific channel. To view the PPV event, you need to subscribe to that channel for the specified time, just like you would subscribe to HBO, except the HBO subscription lasts for a whole month, and auto-renews, whereas the PPV subscription usually only lasts a few hours, maybe a day, and doesn't auto-renew.

[slowbiscuit]

And I think your recordings will be copy-never and will expire after, what, 24 hours? 6 hours? Not a problem if you watch PPV live.

[foxwood]

That's why they call it Pay Per View! if you want to watch it again tomorrow, they want you to pay them again!

[richard1980]

And I think your recordings will be copy-never and will expire after, what, 24 hours? 6 hours? Not a problem if you watch PPV live.

You can't record copy-never content. You can pause it for up to 90 minutes.

[Sammy2]

How did you get PPV on WMC?

If you search the guide, the PPV event will be listed on a specific channel. To view the PPV event, you need to subscribe to that channel for the specified time, just like you would subscribe to HBO, except the HBO subscription lasts for a whole month, and auto-renews, whereas the PPV subscription usually only lasts a few hours, maybe a day, and doesn't auto-renew.

I'm pretty sure that Charter doesn't do this.