Ceton support infinite loop - macroblocking

[barnabas1969]

He did look at the wiring, and immediately complained that my splitter/amp was not provided by them. He also complained that all non-TWC provided coax runs were loose. I do have commercially purchased coax runs that have boots on the ends which are admittedly loose, but just the boot part, not the threaded screw-on part that actually makes the connection - the threaded parts are on tight. I know the entire cable system can be very sensitive, but could it really be the cables that I used (and have already run through walls) are the major culprit?

Uh... yeah. My problem was finally solved when I pitched a fit and got the cable company to send a whole team of techs to my house. Among the many things that they corrected... I had a pre-fabricated cable going from the wall to a TV in a kid's bedroom that was picking up interference from an unknown source. He scanned my signals just about every way he could think of. He even disconnected the cable feed from my house to analyze the signals that were infiltrating into my coax. He and I narrowed it down to that cable. It was causing problems with the tuning adapter because the interference was in the same frequency band as the up-stream signal from the tuning adapter. The tech made a new cable and the problem went away.

They also replaced the cable tap up on the pole, cut off the end of the cable that feeds my house because it was chewed by squirrels, and replaced my old 4-way +7dB amplifier with a new 9-way 0dB amplifier... and ran an additional drop to my wiring closet so that my cable modem no longer shares a line with my HD HomeRun Prime tuners and TA's. This allowed me reduce the number of splitters in the closet.

[jziggity]

Barnabas, did the cable company charge you extra for that trip and all of the subsequent investigating? So, if they want to, the cable company has all of the appropriate equipment and know-how to narrow it down to something like that?

Since the latest channel re-mapping, I haven't seen any pixilation on any channels, except for 1004 and 1006. Below is the latest AllCetonSignals results that I just ran. Granted, there are a lot more frequencies now showing in the yellow, but it appears the main one at the very top (57000) is now within tolerable limits. There are others that are now lower than the readings for channels 1004 and 1006, but I would still consider everything within spec, or darn near close enough, no? I'm not sure what they have been messing with, but it looks like the issue may be coming to a resolution...? (Finger's crossed.) What was it that finally got the cable company to take you seriously and send out the team? Thanks!

[barnabas1969]

They charged me $50.00 for the visit, and refunded it.

The list you attached looks OK. I wouldn't worry about the SNR's that are in the 34.x range.

My cable modem died, and I started having intermittent trouble with the replacement modem that they provided. They sent techs on three different occasions to fix the problem... but none of them did anything because it was working by the time they showed up. At that point, I pitched a fit with them and insisted that they needed to get the damn problem fixed.

My cable company, Brighthouse Networks, has a dedicated forum on dslreports.com. I used that to contact them, and the guy there who goes by the username BHNtechXpert really knows what he's doing, and he has a lot of pull at Brighthouse. He arranged to send a team of three people. One was the attic rat (to run new cables if needed), one was a BHN tech, and one was a supervisor.

What I learned was that most of the techs that they dispatch to a customer's home are actually independent subcontractors. The sub's can't afford the best diagnostic equipment, but the BHN employees carry very expensive high-end equipment and can diagnose anything. He was able to look at each separate channel to see the signal strength and quality. His scanner even had a function that looked like an oscilloscope.

He was able to use that to find the infiltration. First, he disconnected the line that feeds my house, and he connected his scanner to my house wiring. It showed a signal right at the same frequencies used by the up-stream channel of the cable modem and the tuning adapter. I can't explain why it was happening, but the infiltrated signal occasionally spiked up to a very high signal level. He disconnected all of the cables that run into the house from the splitter in the box outside, and then connected each one to see if the problem would return.

It returned when he connected the line that goes to my step-daughter's room. So, I ran to the bedroom and began by disconnecting the TV. The problem was still there. As soon as I disconnected the extension cable (the one that runs from the wall outlet to the back of the TV), the problem disappeared. That cable was a 20 foot one that I had purchased with ends already on it.

He worked hard to satisfy me. He went as far as to replace a tap up on the pole... which is something that would have disconnected all of my neighbors for a short period of time.

[STC]

^ I'm surprised they didn't charge you seeing as it was a patch cable supplied by yourself. It must have made you feel a bit embarrassed considering the 'pitch a fit'.

[barnabas1969]

^ I'm surprised they didn't charge you seeing as it was a patch cable supplied by yourself. It must have made you feel a bit embarrassed considering the 'pitch a fit'.

Yes, I was a little embarrassed... but it wasn't the only problem they found. Their feed to my house was damaged by squirrels, the tap on the line up on the pole was severely corroded, the old modem worked fine until it died... and the new one was intermittent, and it took them FOUR visits to fix the problem with the modem... making me miss work on four different occasions.

Plus, Brighthouse is much more customer-centric than many other cable companies... at least from what I read here. For example, I can't imagine Brighthouse charging me an "outlet fee". If they did, I'd probably dump them and just use OTA and Internet streaming.

Brighthouse has won the JD Power award for best customer satisfaction for five years in a row. I think that speaks volumes... especially considering what you folks get from Comcast, Cox, TimeWarner, etc.

If the first three "techs" had not been so incompetent, I probably would have paid the $50.00 fee, and I would have been happy to do so if it fixed my problem.

[newfiend]

Their feed to my house was damaged by squirrels

http://youtu.be/Jdyo4evwMxU

Sorry .., Couldn't Resist.

[rdkerns]

Jziggity,

I have a similar issue with some channels on my ceton. On the advice of Ceton support the asked me to disconnect any MOCA devices (i.e. Cable Modem) in my network and test again. I did this and the problem remained. They asked me to do this because these devices talk back to the headend of the cable company using RF in a frequency range of about 10-50 mhz which can cause demodulation issues on the infinitv devices. I then proceeded to do more research on the subject. What I read lead me to believe that even though I disconnected my cable modem to test and the problem remained the interference could come from any one of my neighbors cable modem also. To test this I went to my local radio shack and bought an RF filter that blocks the 10-40mhz range for the line that goes to my ceton. This cleared up the issue on one channel that was having the worst of the issue but caused other channels to be unwatchable. This was due to the fact the RF filter i purchased wound up degrading the signal of channels above a certain mhz
So what I did was purchase a High Pass Filter. This filter is designed to block the RF signals in the 10-50mhz range but allow the signals higher than that to flow freely. This cleared up the issue.
Just a side note. you wont really see this issue with Cable Company boxes and Tivo because they have the high pass filter built in.

[foxwood]

High Pass or Low Pass?

The need for a Low Pass filter was identified for FiOS users very early on, precisely because they used MOCA to connect to the STBs

http://experts.windows.com/frms/windows ... 91887.aspx

[rdkerns]

High Pass or Low Pass?

The need for a Low Pass filter was identified for FiOS users very early on, precisely because they used MOCA to connect to the STBs

http://experts.windows.com/frms/windows ... 91887.aspx

High Pass. The Signals you are really trying to block are in the 5-54mhz Range. That it was cable modems respond back on. So I purchased HPF-54MHZ filter on ebay for like $8

Here is a wikipedia chart on the frequencies used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Amer ... requencies

[rdkerns]

here is what I received from Ceton regarding the issue I was having.

We have gone over the newest diagnostic capture and the signal levels appear to be good, but we are seeing a bunch of demodulation errors. We believe there is something causing feedback or interference on the coax line. This would not likely been seen on the set top box because they do have some ability to compensate for the interference. Generally speaking, we find that cable modems, MoCA adapters and VOIP gateways can cause this feedback or interference on the line. An easy troubleshooting measure is to remove the device from the coax and check to see if the problem persists. If you are able to narrow it down to a certain device then you can usually place a filter on the line.

If you have any questions please let us know.

Thank you,
Ceton Support

I took that and googled my butt off doing the research. Which where I found out that my own devices my not be the only culprit but also any or all devices in my neighborhood too. So the answer really is to block those signals.

[barnabas1969]

From what I've read, if you block frequencies below 54MHz, the CableCARD will be unable to receive the OOB lock... which means that it won't receive your subscriptions (channel map).

[rdkerns]

OOB signal downstream is in the 70-130 mhz range.

[jziggity]

Ok, catching up with the new activity on this issue. I tried using a splitter to go around the TA instead of through it, which had no effect on the overall issue. I did see signal levels drop, which I expected, but not enough to impact anything - everything is still within spec or close enough. I have not yet tried using the splitter to give either the Ceton card or my cable modem it's own direct feed split directly off of the main drop coming into the house.

Regarding this high-pass filter, if I go to RadioSchmuks and tell them I want a 54Mhz high-pass filter, is that something they would carry? I'm not even sure what something like that is supposed to look like. Does it just get threaded onto the coax cable? I am willing to try whatever at this point. Thanks!

[rdkerns]

Radio Shack doesn't carry it.. I know I looked. you may be able to contact your cable company and request one.

just do a google search for "hpf-54"


I got mine from ebay for like $8

[jziggity]

Okay, I found this one on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Holland-HPF-54H ... 5651a5c8fd

It looks like it just attaches to the end of the coax without any further adapters or pieces needed. Including shipping it comes in at $11.44. That seems like a pretty reasonable price for another fix attempt. I'll give that a shot. If it doesn't work for me, I'm out less than $12. Thanks!

[barnabas1969]

OOB signal downstream is in the 70-130 mhz range.

OK, then I must have been thinking of the up-stream signal. The Ceton card (and the CableCARD) don't transmit anything up-stream... but make sure not to put that high pass filter before your Tuning Adapter, Cable Modem, or any cable boxes you are leasing from the cable company. If you do, it will prevent your TA and modem from working at all... and your cable boxes will no longer have access to VOD/PPV content.

If this works to fix your problem, it will make me wonder why Ceton would have built a tuner that has a problem with up-stream signals on the cable line.

[scyto]

Multiple folks have suggested changing video cards.

I want to validate that in my experience the type of card and driver revisions absolutely has a material impact on how the macroblocking manifests. Personally NVidia has been worse graphically but with less audio dropout. ATI had less graphics issues but lost audio when the signal had an issue. I have issues with CBS in my region - I fixed it with latest drivers from NVidia and latest firmware from ceton.
What's interesting to me is the issue seems to only occur during programs (e.g. big bang theory) and NEVER during commercials.

However issue came back recently so I will see if I can come up with some graphics cards / driver pointers.

[jziggity]

I don't have another video card to try, and I already spent an extra $100 or so (I think) when I ordered the machine for the upgraded video card. I believe I have already gone down the road of updating the video card drivers, but I can double check on that.

I do have on-board video on the ASUS motherboard. If I disable the add-in card and just use the on-board graphics, do you think that will suffice for a test in this situation?

[scyto]

yes, especially if it is a different chipset and isn't a super old chipset?

[JazJon]

Okay, I found this one on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Holland-HPF-54H ... 5651a5c8fd

It looks like it just attaches to the end of the coax without any further adapters or pieces needed. Including shipping it comes in at $11.44. That seems like a pretty reasonable price for another fix attempt. I'll give that a shot. If it doesn't work for me, I'm out less than $12. Thanks!

I think you need a low pass filter not a high pass one.

I wanted to share my experiences with fixing macroblocking.

After I submitted a ticket, Here's what Ceton said:

"Hi Jon,

Generally speaking, we find that a lot of brands of cable boxes use MoCa and can cause interference on the line if not used with a filter. We've seen similar problems arise from modems as well. If you remove the modem or cable boxes from the lineup, do you continue to have the macroblocking? We generally recommend trying a low-pass or MoCA filter. These will usually clean up the signal and help limit the interference you might receive from other devices on your coax network. We recommend installing the filter right before the infiniTV on the coax line. It is designed to filter out MoCA signals while allowing CATV signals to pass-through without issue.

Here is an example:

http://www.ppc-online.com/broadband/gro ... .php?id=85

If you have any questions please let us know.

Thank You,
Ceton Support"


I took out my cable modem for 48 hours (fed the main line directly to my ceton , and I had ZERO pixelation/macroblocking! (luckily I had access to alternative WiFi signal to allow internet access for the 2 day test)

I bought the filter they recommended, installed it right before my Ceton tuner, and BAM, I have no longer have any Macroblocking/Pixelation. (perfect recordings, perfect live tv)
I found a cheap one on eBay for $6. http://r.ebay.com/giAq6E

I'm Happy. So far so good.

P.S. you can also use a TAP instead of a SPLITTER if you want to have a stronger signal sent to the Ceton tuner. A splitter divides the RF signal 50/50 on each output. A tap is more like 25/75. Output the strong side to the Ceton and the weaker side to the cablemodem. (speed is still rock solid)