Windows 8 Using a Remote Control

[crawfish]

don't get the negativity on this. Windows 8 would make a great 10 ft interface if a little remote support is figured out. The apps and its look is just like the Xbox 360. Don't be surprised if the community figures this out soon. If it happens, just group together your tiles for different apps, and especially on a dedicated HTPC, you can run the apps, and not have to close them. In case anyone hasn't used 8, app switching is quick and apps are light. You could easily have the ultimate media center because you'd have a beautiful easily controllable app for everything, and just switch to media center for tv and configuration. You could even majorly pair down what's on your media center.

IOW, and like I said, all that's missing from Windows 8 is everything. Besides the apps not existing, it doesn't even provide a framework for developing these remote-friendly 10' programs some people mistakenly think are a natural fit for its 1' touch interface and keyboard/mouse afterthought interface. Those who would be willing to reduce the tile number to just the imaginary HTPC apps don't realize that an equivalent interface for the remainder could be developed in about a day, as what's left is so superficial, just basically a static menu system navigable with the arrow keys and selectable by pressing Enter.

Also like I said, everything you want and more already exists in the open source program XBMC, which is being actively developed and has spawned projects like Plex that run in a supported way on devices like Roku, and XBMC itself can run on devices like Apple TV, though you do have to jailbreak. That's the real future for the PC, IMO, and hopefully it will continue to expand into other devices. The next version of XBMC will include DVR support, though it won't handle protected content, for which the only PC solution remains Media Center.

you can run the apps, and not have to close them

Sometimes I like to switch away from playing music or TV to something else but let them run in the background. Ideally, switching to TV pauses music, and switching to music at the very least takes over audio, which is different than switching to say Excel, in which case, both should keep playing. This could be hard to coordinate between independent apps that Metroers think are a good idea, which is the sort of thing I was getting at in my earlier posts. This context-dependent behavior is not just going to fall out automatically any more than a good 10' remote control interface is going to magically appear in a touch app without giving it any thought, which is what some people naively expect to happen. I also like to have a real desktop window for TV sometimes, and that is at complete odds with Metro.

[jeepguy04]

I don't get the negativity. If you don't like windows 8 then don't use it. Continue using windows 7 if you need cable card support or any number of other apps like XBMC if you don't.

But why do you have to continually down those of us that see potential with windows 8. It will be what we as a community make of it. Even if 99% of the metro apps don't play nice with a remote, who cares. The media center community has shown that we can create so good apps and work arounds to fill our needs.

I've developed plugins for media center. It isn't easy and you can't do a whole lot. They are buggy and slow. I haven't developed a new metro app but I imagine it is alot lot easier to develop. Since microsoft is banking its whole future on this new type of app they are going to make sure there are plenty of resources out there to help people develop these apps.

Screw microsoft and most developers who won't see the 10' market. We can make win 8 expand what our htpcs can do. Until there is another option that lets us record encrypted cable content then I'm sticking with MC. And I'd rather keep moving forward and expand my experience than be stuck with just the MC interface that is not going to get any improvements.

[tommo]

don't get the negativity on this. Windows 8 would make a great 10 ft interface if a little remote support is figured out. The apps and its look is just like the Xbox 360. Don't be surprised if the community figures this out soon. If it happens, just group together your tiles for different apps, and especially on a dedicated HTPC, you can run the apps, and not have to close them. In case anyone hasn't used 8, app switching is quick and apps are light. You could easily have the ultimate media center because you'd have a beautiful easily controllable app for everything, and just switch to media center for tv and configuration. You could even majorly pair down what's on your media center.

You sound just like an Apple fanboi.

did you mispell 'microsoft' with 'apple'? even then I don't get it.

[crawfish]

Screw microsoft and most developers who won't see the 10' market. We can make win 8 expand what our htpcs can do.

What did you have in mind? What unique features does Windows 8 bring to the table that will allow "us" to "expand what our HTPCs can do"? I mean besides not including Media Center and putting it on deathwatch. And who is this "we" as opposed to Microsoft and "most developers"?

Until there is another option that lets us record encrypted cable content then I'm sticking with MC.

Indeed. As I've said many times, it's the only game in town for that, and it's the only reason I continue to use Media Center.

And I'd rather keep moving forward and expand my experience than be stuck with just the MC interface that is not going to get any improvements.

Whatever you think of Metro, it is inarguable that Windows 8 doesn't move you forward WRT HTPC usage!

Like I said, there's XBMC for everything but protected TV, and it's under active development and has spawned projects like Plex which even run on devices like Roku. Windows 8 doesn't make it possible for app developers to support protected TV, which will be the only thing missing from XBMC once the next version comes out with official DVR support. So Windows 8 doesn't help with that, which is the only thing Microsoft could conceivably help with.

For the reasons I've given several times by now, I don't get the enthusiasm for the Metro 1' touch interface and afterthought keyboard/mouse interface for programs that need a 10' interface; as I've explained, and others have confirmed with for example the Netflix app, the latter doesn't just magically fall out of the former. They're not the same thing, and the Metro menu page is no substitute for designed programs like XBMC and WMC, which contain and coordinate everything.

[tommo]

The point some of us are making is that if metro was coordinated just enough so a remote worked it would potentially be a great htpc option.. which still has the option for the user to jump into media center and stay in media center.

You say about it being a 1 foot interface, do you just mean the ui is too small? on my tele that i use media center on i don't have this issue, i can read the text on apps like netfllix perfectly ok, couple that with the big buttons on the start menu i don't really see the issue here.

xbmc - 3rd party plugins. Admittedly its been about a year but the last time i used it I would not call it a great experience adding this apps only to find a week later it didn't work.. go on the forum.. "update coming soon they've changed the api". For this reason alone metro seems appealing. I hope they get the tv side of things right, but really media centers recorded tv and guide is second to none, if it wasn't for that i'd have just bought a £100 popcorn hour a while back and had down with it.

wmc - 3rd party plugins suck, there are a couple exceptions but really.

[jeepguy04]

'We' is the small set of developers that care about MC. 'We' is the users that want to find ways to make the experience better and smoother. Figure out the best way to switch back and forth from MC to the new environment that feels the least clumsy.

What if nobody ever developed plugins like my movies and media browser because they thought there was no market. What if people never figured out how to link to hulu desktop because it wasn't the ideal solution.

Nobody said win 8 was the ideal media interface. Everybody would be alot happier if microsoft was expanding MC and adding new features, adding a better way to make plugins for it and got major players on board to develop the plugins. But they are not. Most stuff will not work well with the remote. But anybody who is interested in doing more with their htpc than just watching tv, movies and listening to music can now have options. Isn't that why most of us are MC users? Because we wanted to do more than just watch and record tv? I never said these apps were going to provide a better media experience. But they can allow us to access more content even if the way we access it isn't ideal with a remote. And for the main important stuff like tv and movies we still have the old standby mc interface that we do in win 7.

Unless you have non xbox extenders that will no longer work, you are not losing anything by upgrading except the $39 bucks. So whats the harm? If you can't risk your main htpc then throw it on a test rig or dual boot or take a full backup that you can revert back to at the end of the day. I for one will get more than 39 bucks entertainment from playing around with it (although I have a MSDN subscription so I can play around with it for free) .

We've heard you state your opinion many times. And I guess we will have to agree to disagree. But going forward can you please let those of us that want to explore win 8 and what apps work well 10' and what apps fail miserably have our discussion? Find out where there is need and see if any developers want to fill that need.

[crawfish]

Nobody said win 8 was the ideal media interface.

Actually, I've seen a bunch of posts from people who've seen the 1' Metro tile interface and in effect declared it the perfect 10' remote control interface. I've only tried to explain why I think they're mistaken.

Everybody would be alot happier if microsoft was expanding MC and adding new features, adding a better way to make plugins for it and got major players on board to develop the plugins. But they are not. Most stuff will not work well with the remote.

Indeed.

But anybody who is interested in doing more with their htpc than just watching tv, movies and listening to music can now have options.

Don't those things pretty much define the purpose of an HTPC? What new options do you have? To run Windows 8 instead of 7? That's not offering anything new. Windows 8 only takes things away and makes them more inconvenient.

Unless you have non xbox extenders that will no longer work, you are not losing anything by upgrading except the $39 bucks.

I disagree completely. Besides losing money, you're rewarding Microsoft for kicking Media Center to the curb, offering nothing to replace it, and charging extra for it. You're also rewarding them for wasting several years on trying to create a misguided convergence between desktop and mobile in desperation over losing the mobile market. Metro is horrible for desktop/laptop usage, and even with a touchscreen, it's terrible when the monitor is typically 24" in front of you and you have to reach out to touch it. It's a colossal mode, an infinitely scrolling flat collection of tiles, and it relies on egregious UI blunders like the "4 corners", those 1-pixel hidden hotspots, and by default comes configured with silly live tiles that are huge yet manage to display uselessly limited information such as one random headline I don't care about. And it's even worse than that, because they rotate content, including pictures, so the typical Metro start screen looks like a badly designed web page with a bunch of blinking, distracting content. It's the worst thing out of Microsoft in a very long time. Looking at the apps, I loaded the music app and added a few songs to it. Microsoft rewarded me with some ads for rappers, given them equal billing with my stuff. It's more than misguided and unusable; it's downright offensive.

So whats the harm? If you can't risk your main htpc then throw it on a test rig or dual boot or take a full backup that you can revert back to at the end of the day. I for one will get more than 39 bucks entertainment from playing around with it (although I have a MSDN subscription so I can play around with it for free).

I have it through MSDN, too. Windows 8 is the sort of thing VMs are good for, except it sucks even more on VMs because the "4 corners" are next to impossible even to stumble upon. I actually read about them a couple of weeks after installing one of the previews, and while this solved some of my puzzlement at how to operate the thing, that was when I began to realize how truly awful Windows 8 is.

We've heard you state your opinion many times. And I guess we will have to agree to disagree. But going forward can you please let those of us that want to explore win 8 and what apps work well 10' and what apps fail miserably have our discussion? Find out where there is need and see if any developers want to fill that need.

I've responded to the notion that the tile interface is a viable and even ideal and desirable replacement for designed software like WMC and XBMC, and I've explained in some detail why I think this is wrong. You're free to ignore it, or try to refute it, but I don't appreciate being asked to "be quiet", which seems to be what a bunch of people here like to turn to when someone disagrees with them.

The OP said about his experiment, "Overall experience: Good!", while I think it demonstrated exactly the opposite, as it illustrated many of the things I've talked about, and one thing that never occurred to me, remapping the green button to work around Metro deficiencies, thereby rendering it useless for launching Media Center and going to its main menu. Concerning apps in general, my main point has been that apps are likely to work with the remote only to the extent they're navigable with the arrow keys and actionable by pressing Enter, because developers aren't considering the 10' remote control interface when designing for 1' touch, which is what Metro is all about. If people do start to design for 10' and solve the coordination and other issues I've mentioned, great, but I'd wait for it to happen before spending money on Windows 8 and thereby rewarding Microsoft for inflicting Metro on the world, removing Media Center, and charging extra for it. Saves the user money and numerous headaches to boot.

[bobbob]

i would agree, i am also bored of reading crawfish's hate of win8.

[STC]

Hello everyone!

May I ask that we keep this discussion within the boundaries of good etiquette.

We all have different opinions about everything, and everyone has a right to say their piece, as long as we keep it civil!

This thread is great as I am stuck in the middle and reading everyones comments is helping me decide.

[trooper11]

I know this is a controversial subject, but I'm glad to see people pursuing these questions.

While Win 8 has made alot of changes and taken a step back regarding media center, I still think there is potential there in the Metro environment. I agree it wasn't built as a media center replacement or with remote control as a primary control, but I still think the right developer could craft that support and offer an app that can serve my media. The general interface can certainly feel comfortable on a TV, and that is why I am interesting in hearing about developments in trying to take advantage of Metro to be used in a focused, htpc environment.

The first step in my mind was remote control and so its cool to see people demonstrating it now. Right now, it can work with some effort. The key is refining that support so that it doesn't require much effort and is more flexible in customizing the remote controls. I'm no stranger to custom remote controls. I have a bunch of custom commands setup for my Harmony One for my 7MC setup.

Heck, even the prospect of gesture controls are interesting to me in a htpc setting. I have used Kinect and I could see myself using it for navigating an interface for all of my media needs. Since Win 8 supports that, we may see more development in that area.

[barnabas1969]

I'd like to ask nxsfan another question about the Win8 apps...

@nxsfan: Have you found any keyboard keys (or key combinations) that work in Netflix and other apps? If so, it is possible to use other software (e.g. EventGhost) to detect IR codes, and then the appropriate keyboard shortcuts could be sent. EventGhost can even determine which app is in the foreground, and send different commands for the same IR command depending on which app is in the foreground.

[nxsfan]

Nice idea barnabas1969 but I tried a whole host of potential key combinations and the only one that works is Space for pause.

[adam1991]

I know this is a controversial subject, but I'm glad to see people pursuing these questions.

While Win 8 has made alot of changes and taken a step back regarding media center, I still think there is potential there in the Metro environment.

We can agree there's potential, but that doesn't mean *current* functionality.

I daresay most people here have Media Center in order to use it, not simply fiddle and twiddle with Windows for the sake of fiddling and twiddling.

[crawfish]

Nice idea barnabas1969 but I tried a whole host of potential key combinations and the only one that works is Space for pause.

So with keyboard and mouse then, it's almost entirely mouse? None of the Silverlight version's keyboard shortcuts work?

If so, that's simultaneously unsurprising and shockingly bad, because while predictable, it's hard to believe it when it happens. Metro really is a rabbit hole. Oh well, it is software, and it is possible that it can improve, but it is a case of a Big Company following the Big Idea of the moment, so I don't know how likely it is. I mean, Netflix probably noted that connecting PCs to TVs is hardly being done anymore, they're already in Media Center and web browsers, not to mention in TVs, streamers, BD players, and toaster ovens (practically), so why not just focus exclusively on making a "great touch app" optimized for small mobile devices; it just doesn't need to be anything more.

[swest6602]

For any iOS users try HippoRemote. For Android users try Unified Remote. Both require a server on the HTPC, but they run in the background and don't use much in the way of resources. I prefer HippoRemote on iOS as it uses Bonjour (already installed if you have iTunes. If not you can install Bonjour without installing iTunes) and will allow the use of the mouse when security messages pop-up (Unified Remote does not.).

Both of these remotes turn your phone or tablet into a remote, offering mouse, keyboard and app specific layouts. The device touchscreen works very well with Windows 8. No gestures, but two finger scrolling works in both apps.

As for Windows 8, I like it quite a lot as is, but am more excited by its potential. I bought into GoogleTV for the same reason. I love the idea of adding apps to my HTPC. GoogleTV works with Media Center (with limitations), but it is not quite the answer I wanted. Windows 8 is not there yet either, but assuming some of the great Media Center and Windows devs recognize the potential of 'Metro' as a front-end for a Media Center PC we will see some great apps. One of my concerns is the sandboxing of Metro apps. I believe that presently Metro is more like iOS than Android- apps cannot talk with each other. If that is not the case and devs have the ability to interact with other apps we could see some cool stuff (Twitter stream auto-scrolling on top of election results or the Oscars. Searching for a show/movie and getting results for all possible ways to watch: Recorded TV, Guide, Netflix, Amazon, etc.. Then click to play/rent). I guess time will tell. As is I really like XBox Music and look forward to watching the Store grow. The smoother, speedier interface alone makes the upgrade worth it to me.

[crawfish]

For any iOS users try HippoRemote. For Android users try Unified Remote. Both require a server on the HTPC, but they run in the background and don't use much in the way of resources. I prefer HippoRemote on iOS as it uses Bonjour (already installed if you have iTunes. If not you can install Bonjour without installing iTunes) and will allow the use of the mouse when security messages pop-up (Unified Remote does not.).

Both of these remotes turn your phone or tablet into a remote, offering mouse, keyboard and app specific layouts. The device touchscreen works very well with Windows 8. No gestures, but two finger scrolling works in both apps.

I do use HippoRemote, primarily to start iTunes remotely. After buying several of these iOS-based remotes, I concluded I basically hate them all, and Hippo is the only one I've kept. Reasons: My Touch doesn't have a proximity sensor, so I have to unlock it just about every time, but more than that, I have to look at the screen to tell what I'm doing, and that is a dealbreaker. There is also the issue of the charge running out daily. The only remote I want is a screenless IR remote that runs on 2 AA batteries forever and works with everything. That is what I have in my Sony RM-VL610, which is so good, I bought three before they stopped making them.

OTOH, I do like using the Remote App on my Touch to control iTunes and play music on my TV-less Apple TV, as it's basically like using the built-in Music app, which can also be used to stream music from the device using Airplay. I think this 1' interface is a lot better than any 10' interface for Music purposes. So I'm not totally against using a Touch or phone to control certain things; I just don't like them as a substitute for keyboard/mouse control of a PC or traditional remote control for TV-related activities.

[artyzipp]

I am with NXSFAN...I am loving the UI and look of Windows 8 with my HTPC. I just need to find the right remote/keyboard combo to make it work. This could just be a release away from logitech

[kc10boom]

I've been using the K400 from Logitech whenever I want to use the tiles. A Kinect interface would be awesome

[barnabas1969]

@nxsfan: I'd like an answer to the question posed by crawfish (see below). He linked to some good info. I don't know if the Metro version of Netflix runs Silverlight, but it's worth a try.

None of the Silverlight version's keyboard shortcuts work?

On an unrelated note, I could have sworn that I made a comment in my previous post regarding the arguing in this thread. I guess the mods decided to delete it. Really... the arguing is pointless. Some people will try to run Win8. They will be the pioneers, and they will help us to figure out if Win8 is viable for us. Don't kill the messenger. If some developers ever create some apps for Metro that have a 10-foot UI, then it could be a viable option for the rest of us. There are several options to make a Media Center remote more "Metro friendly".

If the popular apps (Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, Vudu, and whatever is popular in Europe) evolve to include a 10-foot UI (or at least keyboard shortcuts), then that will make Metro an even more attractive option. Imagine being able to easily move between the Metro apps and Media Center. With some creative thinking, it won't be too difficult to move between Metro and Media Center. If streaming apps are developed for Metro that have a 10-foot UI (or keyboard shortcuts), then that will allow you to easily move between live/recorded TV and other sources (again, with some creative thinking and tweaks).

I can see several ways to make it possible to move seamlessly between Metro and Media Center. I think the important thing is to put pressure on the developers of those Metro apps, so that they include commands that are compatible with a 10-foot UI (or keyboard shortcuts). Basically, that boils down to a set of keyboard commands for those apps. If a Metro app supports a set of keyboard commands, then it is entirely possible to make your Media Center remote send those commands via software like EventGhost and/or AutoHotKey.

Instead of complaining about the decisions that have already been made by Microsoft, I suggest that you should contact software vendors and those who have influence over the development of the software... like Netflix, Hulu, Vudu, Amazon, etc. Encourage them to include support for a 10-foot UI that will work with the Media Center IR receiver, and/or in the absence of that possibility... keyboard shortcuts (at a minimum: arrow keys, plus key combinations for play/pause/ffwd/rwd/etc). If we can convince those developers to include keyboard/10-foot-UI friendly commands in their code, then we have a possibility to greatly expand the capabilities of our HTPC's.

In short, don't close your mind to future possibilities... even if you can't see a future for Metro on a desktop PC. Personally, I can't see Metro ever being used in a corporate environment. I don't know what M$ was thinking in this regard. I also doubt that it will be popular on a home/consumer desktop with a traditional keyboard/mouse. It looks great for a touch-screen, but most people don't own one... and they're currently very expensive. However, there is a great possibility for HTPC... if (big IF) the apps contain a 10-foot UI that is compatible with a Media Center IR receiver and/or keyboard shortcuts that make it possible to control the app without a mouse or touch screen.

[nxsfan]

I did try many of the silverlight shortcuts before and of course none of them worked, just the spacebar.