[CETON UPDATE] Echo, Q and Companion

Talk with fellow members about Ceton's Media Center Extender.
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adam1991

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#141

Post by adam1991 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:05 pm

STC wrote:Give it time and I wager a lot of the commercials will be graphics onscreen during the show. I've seen some of those already and there will be Jack Diddly we can do about it :(
Sure there is. You can do what I did from pretty much the mid-90s until late 2004: stop watching TV, and go out and do other things. (Does anyone remember the Fox show Titus? It was on for three years, apparently. I had never, not once, heard of it until I saw Christopher Titus on stage recently--for the *second* time--and he happened to mention it. Frankly, I think not watching TV is a release...)

In late 2004 I got ReplayTV, and that was the *only* reason I went back to watching TV. Commercial advance and watching the shows *my* schedule.

7MC continues that tradition. But if MC goes away, or if the TV people get even MORE obnoxious about shoving ads in my face, I go back to Plan A.

The only way to win is not to play the game.

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Motz

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#142

Post by Motz » Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:14 pm

erkotz wrote:
Motz wrote:I think there are certain legalities with commercial skipping. It is a very gray area. Look at dish with the Hopper and the stuff they are going through.
IANAL, and I am not speaking for Ceton's stance, however, as far as I know, there is no legal precedent saying commercial skipping by an end-user illegal. Obviously the TV stations do not like it, but that doesn't make it illegal. I believe ReplayTV settled their suit, and Dish's product is new, and also a bit different (as I understand it, Dish is actually marking the commercials for you, as opposed to an algorithm).
Yeah same here. It is all a gray area. My personal feeling is consumers should be able to do whatever they want with their content. I don't mind 30 second skipping though to be honest.
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STC

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#143

Post by STC » Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:27 pm

erkotz wrote:IANAL
Yes, I DID have to look that one up... :D :shock:
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STC

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#144

Post by STC » Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:34 pm

Back to the topic in hand (ahem), the current offerings for commercial skip in Media Center are made of two parts.- One scans and the other instigates. Separate entities created either piece. A certain unspoken benefit to that partnership.....
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Sammy2

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#145

Post by Sammy2 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:01 am

STC wrote:Give it time and I wager a lot of the commercials will be graphics onscreen during the show. I've seen some of those already and there will be Jack Diddly we can do about it :(
You've seen some? A lot of the time they obstruct 20% or more of the screen.

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STC

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#146

Post by STC » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:24 am

The one's I have seen (I do not live in America) were layered CGI stuff scrolling across the screen horizontally for a washing product and also a vacation tour operator.
I think they were experimental as I haven't seen anything like them since.
I'm not talking about the network graphics you see all the time, these were totally different.

Do you get a lot of these over the border?
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#147

Post by Sammy2 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:41 pm

It was the network scrolls I was talking about but they are commercials and annoying nonetheless.

I had read that advertisements for products were going to be coming forth just as you describe. I'm guessing that they need to pay for production of TV shows somehow; if everybody's got a DVR and the sponsors refuse to pay because they know a growing percentage of the population time shifts the networks have to do this.

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#148

Post by bmblank » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:21 pm

They annoy the crap out if me. They're very invasive. Some are even starting to have sound. I wish there was a way to get rid of them, but I have no idea how a program like comskip can differentiate that from the actual show. I guess that's why I'm just a user and not a dev.
Please, somebody (Erik from comskip, maybe) work on getting rid of these...

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STC

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#149

Post by STC » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:24 pm

^ That would be impossible without missing parts of the actual show.
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richard1980

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#150

Post by richard1980 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:47 pm

Sammy2 wrote:I'm guessing that they need to pay for production of TV shows somehow; if everybody's got a DVR and the sponsors refuse to pay because they know a growing percentage of the population time shifts the networks have to do this.
This is not entirely true. I don't see any advertising on premium movie channels. So clearly there are alternatives besides advertising to generating the revenue required to pay for programming. Additionally, the revenue generated from commercials doesn't all go to paying for content. Today's business world does not settle for only generating enough revenue to pay for expenses. In this case, that means it is not acceptable to generate only enough revenue to pay for the TV shows. Instead, a company in this business must generate MORE revenue than what is required to pay for the TV shows.

Case in point: In Q2 2012, AMC Networks reported a net income (aka profit) of $41.5 million on $328 million in revenue (and that's despite losing all the revenue from Dish Network). In other words, AMC Networks had $41.5 million more income than expenses. Clearly they could have cut out $41.5 million worth of advertising without risking the content. The same can be said for any other company in this business. How many commercials are being aired to satisfy the investor demand for higher and higher profits? I would be willing to bet that across the entire TV system, the majority of commercials are not actually necessary, but are aired simply to increase profits.

I'd also like to point out what AMC Networks President and CEO Josh Sapan had to say about the Q2 2012 earnings: "The results were driven by continued advertiser demand and renewals with distributors".

Of course, this isn't the only business that does this. The entire business world does this. Make no mistake about it: Pretty much everything is overpriced because everybody involved wants a profit. Nobody wants to settle for breaking even.

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#151

Post by adam1991 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:10 pm

richard1980 wrote:Case in point: In Q2 2012, AMC Networks reported a net income (aka profit) of $41.5 million on $328 million in revenue (and that's despite losing all the revenue from Dish Network). In other words, AMC Networks had $41.5 million more income than expenses. Clearly they could have cut out $41.5 million worth of advertising without risking the content. The same can be said for any other company in this business. How many commercials are being aired to satisfy the investor demand for higher and higher profits? I would be willing to bet that across the entire TV system, the majority of commercials are not actually necessary, but are aired simply to increase profits.

I'd also like to point out what AMC Networks President and CEO Josh Sapan had to say about the Q2 2012 earnings: "The results were driven by continued advertiser demand and renewals with distributors".

Of course, this isn't the only business that does this. The entire business world does this. Make no mistake about it: Pretty much everything is overpriced because everybody involved wants a profit. Nobody wants to settle for breaking even.
Exactly.

And the only vote you as a viewer has is with your feet and your wallet.

Even despite DVR with commercial advance, I stopped watching USA Network a long time ago. Something about them creeps me out.

Now, keep in mind that our job as viewers is to maximize *our* profit. Our "profit" in this case is the value of our time and how we spend it. Time can't be replaced, so we need to maximize the value of OUR time on this earth. That means not watching commercials, for me. If THEIR profit motive gets to the point where it's nothing but commercials, then MY personal profit with regard to watching TV goes to zero. I will then seek personal profit elsewhere.

The reason I stopped watching TV in the mid 90s is that I realized how much commercial time had invaded my life. In the 80s it was pretty straightforward, but by the 90s we were down to 40 minutes of show per hour. It really hit home when I'd sit down to watch TV, start flipping through the channels, and 90% of what I flipped to was commercial content. I realized that this happened to me no matter what time of day it was, and no matter what part of the hour I was in.

So I stopped. And like I said, the only reason I went back was because technology gave me the power to profit personally from television.

When/if they get around that technology, regardless of mechanism, and the commercial content comes back and overwhelms the non-commercial content I will go back to not playing their game. Their profit from me will be zero, and I will find personal entertainment profit elsewhere.

Right now, Netflix is a great service for me.

mike_b

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#152

Post by mike_b » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:35 pm

adam1991 wrote:And the only vote you as a viewer has is with your feet and your wallet.
This is a good point. A couple years ago I became frustrated with my cable TV service. The price was continually increasing and the quality of the programming was continually decreasing. So I cancelled my cable TV service. I switched to an antenna and record OTA TV. These days, I typically record PBS shows and sporting events from the major networks. I also have a Roku where I watch things like live news from the BBC, home improvement shows from HGTV and technology shows from TWIT. I'm happy that I have enough TV to keep me entertained while paying zero monthly subscription fees.

slowbiscuit

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#153

Post by slowbiscuit » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:08 pm

Kowolski wrote:Since MCE is basically at end of life stage and abandoned by MS. Maybe Ceton could acquire WMC, continue development and just charge for it. Why start new when there is a working product already.
If that was a possibility, it probably would've already happened because it is in Ceton's best interest to do so. I would imagine that they've had that conversation with MS and it has gone nowhere (so far).

Which raises another question - what stops Ceton from rolling their own DVR app into Windows with full DRM support? If MS doesn't care about WMC, why would they care about something written to replace it? And license Ceton to also have an extender compatible RDP server, of course.

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#154

Post by bobbob » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:39 pm

slowbiscuit wrote:
Kowolski wrote: Which raises another question - what stops Ceton from rolling their own DVR app into Windows with full DRM support? If MS doesn't care about WMC, why would they care about something written to replace it? And license Ceton to also have an extender compatible RDP server, of course.
the windows 8 model positively encourages it, they're just adopting the iOS / android model

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