[CETON UPDATE] Echo, Q and Companion

[makryger]

It really makes me wonder why they can't at least have released the specs of the Echo yet?? Certainly the file types, video/audio playback capability, etc. are not still an unknown...

http://thegreenbutton.tv/forums/viewtop ... =69&t=2537

[bobbob]

whats DVR tax? is that like bear tax?

[Jonny561201]

whats DVR tax? is that like bear tax?

What is a bear tax? Pay more for Polar than Grizzly? I know you probably meant beer, but I needed the laugh. The dvr tax is basically when the cable company charges you the rental fee for their box. They typically charge more for a DVR box and any additional units you need to rent to "extend" your experience to other TVs.

Personally I won't be getting an echo as I have a Xbox. My media center is basically over 4 years old and my wife really wants to play around with 3D as we have a panel that supports it along with a couple decent movie titles that were on super sale (avengers ). However, since the Q is pretty much MIA I may be required to update the media center and if I go that route I have no need for an echo, Q, or TV6. Was really excited about the Q, but now I feel deflated.

[barnabas1969]

whats DVR tax? is that like bear tax?

When you rent a DVR from the cable company, they add an extra charge for DVR "service" in addition to the rental of the equipment itself. Then, the rental and service fee are also taxed... making the total bill even higher.

[makryger]

Yeah, its not really a tax in the government sense... it's just that the companies create inflated extra monthly fees to use their services and equipment. We are already paying a whole lot for the tv content itself, and then the DVR tax adds an extra $10-15 a month to rent their equipment, more to rent extra boxes to watch on different TVs, sometimes a random "DVR service fee". And in the end, you have to return all the equipment. At least with the HTPC plus extender model, you own your own equipment and aren't paying extra monthly fees just to record the content.

[Jonny561201]

Many people have done the analysis and depending on your provider and the fees they apply you would typically break even around 1-2 years (also dependent on your setup) of service and then you are saving money by not using your cable companies offering.

[Sammy2]

The DVR tax that Charter proudly charges is $20 for up to 4 DVR's and another $20 for an additional 4 more DVR's. This is on top of the $5/month for each STB.

So having just one DVR/STB is $25/month. The HTPC DVR solution pays for itself real quick at that rate. I was already using my HTPC as a basic streamer and just added the CableCARD tuner to it. So I look at just the cost of the CableCARD tuner in the payback picture so it is a very quick ROI. Add in the $20/month "new customer" discount I got when I switched my TV service from Uverse to Charter and I think it already paid for itself after only 3 months.

[Diverge]

It really makes me wonder why they can't at least have released the specs of the Echo yet?? Certainly the file types, video/audio playback capability, etc. are not still an unknown...

http://thegreenbutton.tv/forums/viewtop ... =69&t=2537

That is so old. That was created like a week after they introduced the product. Since then there was discussions about if it will support various formats, ect. And it was always answered with a wait and see type answer. We're still waiting

[leonpress]

Got the notice from Ceton and am very dis-heartened. I built a WMC PC and went crazy getting it set up and working with their help and now the Echo is not here yet and the Q is in Limbo. I think I should have just bought the new Tivo XL4 and kept my others. The Echo, when released for beta will still cost the testers retail and we will still have to keep a MC PC running. I manage to watch & record with mine but my wife would never be able to do it with all the little glitches that pop up on an almost daily basis. I believe they are caused by the OS and I am tired of it so I just handle it but without the Q on the horizon I think we are back to either Tivo or the cable company dvr's. Sad. Someone should have seen this coming.

[lithium630]

Got the notice from Ceton and am very dis-heartened. I built a WMC PC and went crazy getting it set up and working with their help and now the Echo is not here yet and the Q is in Limbo. I think I should have just bought the new Tivo XL4 and kept my others. The Echo, when released for beta will still cost the testers retail and we will still have to keep a MC PC running. I manage to watch & record with mine but my wife would never be able to do it with all the little glitches that pop up on an almost daily basis. I believe they are caused by the OS and I am tired of it so I just handle it but without the Q on the horizon I think we are back to either Tivo or the cable company dvr's. Sad. Someone should have seen this coming.

What issues are you talking about? I have been running Media Center exclusively for about 3 years and it is really solid. It took some trial and error with hardware but I haven't had issues in a very long time. That's not to say Media Center is flawless, but neither is Tivo and definitely not my cable company dvr.

[barnabas1969]

Got the notice from Ceton and am very dis-heartened. I built a WMC PC and went crazy getting it set up and working with their help and now the Echo is not here yet and the Q is in Limbo. I think I should have just bought the new Tivo XL4 and kept my others. The Echo, when released for beta will still cost the testers retail and we will still have to keep a MC PC running. I manage to watch & record with mine but my wife would never be able to do it with all the little glitches that pop up on an almost daily basis. I believe they are caused by the OS and I am tired of it so I just handle it but without the Q on the horizon I think we are back to either Tivo or the cable company dvr's. Sad. Someone should have seen this coming.

What issues are you talking about? I have been running Media Center exclusively for about 3 years and it is really solid. It took some trial and error with hardware but I haven't had issues in a very long time. That's not to say Media Center is flawless, but neither is Tivo and definitely not my cable company dvr.

I was thinking the same thing. My wife and kids love Media Center. That's what this forum is here for. If you're having problems, ask for help.

[bobbob]

bear tax - the simpsons. i'll get my coat

[mrphil]

I still believe that we will see the Echo... just not by Christmas. Even if they shipped the beta units today, that's not enough time for a beta.

They could just do what Linksys did with the DMA series extenders, tell your customers it's a retail product and let them deal with being unwitting beta testers! That would save time.



(Only joking, I know Ceton are better than that!)

[DigiTechMedia]

My confusion lies in the fact that ceton has already stated their guys have the echo at home now. If the hardware is indeed finished and now waiting for the software to be polished, isn't that why there is an echo beta? To be shipping these units before Christmas, I doubt it. If true, what are we looking at, a 2-3 week long beta process?

[slowbiscuit]

I remember seeing erkotz post in a forum here that Ceton was interested in helping out a serious team of devolpers get copy protected content into other DVR programs (myth XBMC) as I recall he even said they would be willing to sponser the DRM licensing fees....so it looks like Ceton has seen this on the wall for some time now

This is my guess as to which direction they're going to go, assuming there's money still in it for them - Myth and/or XBMC are a superior platform than WMC anyway. The big problem here is that you lose the Xbox as an extender if you go down this road, so you're locking yourself into users buying Echos or (possibly) rolling their own Myth slave PCs or putting XBMC on other devices to work with a Linux-based Q. Then you have the additional problem of guide data, since Schedules Direct is not intended for use with for-profit devices. Ceton would have to work out some sort of deal for that, and it wouldn't be free for Q users IMO as it would be for WMC.

[adam1991]

This is my guess as to which direction they're going to go, assuming there's money still in it for them - Myth and/or XBMC are a superior platform than WMC anyway. The big problem here is that you lose the Xbox as an extender if you go down this road, so you're locking yourself into users buying Echos or (possibly) rolling their own Myth slave PCs or putting XBMC on other devices to work with a Linux-based Q.

The issue is DRM programs, which right now pretty much only the 7MC/extender model handles to the satisfaction of the copyright owners.

For now, let's ignore DRM. hmmmmm. How about a Roku channel?

The hardware exists, all you need is the software. If MS compatibility is no longer an issue...

OK, now on to DRM.

[JohnW248]

The issue is DRM programs, which right now pretty much only the 7MC/extender model handles to the satisfaction of the copyright owners.

OK, now on to DRM.

In theory anyone (Myth, et al) could get a playready license from MS but they would still have to undergo Cable Labs Certication. Right now the only base OS that has a DRM that passes Cable Labs is MS and any open system by definition wouldn't be able to pass "secret" DRM certification. Steve Jobs wouldn't do it for Mac OS but maybe the current management might. In any event other programs could make use of MOCUR available tuners if they were willing to pay the license fees and pass the tests (it isn't cheap by the way)

[slowbiscuit]

Eric has speculated on AVS that a closed source "blob" could be created for Linux to handle the DRM and pass content to open source apps like Myth and XBMC. Ceton would have to fund the development and cert of this app with CableLabs but it remains to be seen if CL would approve anything running on Linux (I have my doubts). And you still have the issues I mentioned if you abandon WMC - Linux makes it a smaller niche, no way around that.

[adam1991]

Um, Linux probably makes it a better appliance.

[slowbiscuit]

Yeah if you think about it, Tivo runs on Linux (currently 2.6 kernel), so there shouldn't be an issue with Ceton creating an appliance based on it. But I was talking about the general "blob" that could be accessed on any Linux box by open source apps. That I don't think will happen, because you can't create a 'secure all the way to the screen' setup that WMC and Tivo have for DRM today.

But Linux and a commercial DVR based on it using Myth or XBMC or whatever may also introduce patent issues with Tivo that you wouldn't have with WMC.