Taxation, Monarchy, Historic Events, Politics, Kitchen Sinks

[lithium630]

It's amazing where a comment about the BBC's Olympic coverage can lead...

Yep. Completely hijacked. This is the "lounge" though. Where better to BS about politics? All we're missing is the cigars.

[barnabas1969]

Sounds good to me, Lithium. I'll be driving to NC next week (from Florida) to visit a very good friend (who used to be a Democrat, but now since he's making the big bucks... he has converted to be a Republican). If you're on the way, and want to have some drinks, cigars, and interesting conversation, PM me... I'll be happy to stop by. I'm off work for the week, and will be traveling alone... so I'm open to whatever happens along the way.

[lithium630]

I'm in NH, a little too far away. I do have a house vacation home in Davenport, FL. Don't get to go very often. Are you saying that since your friend saw the light, someday you may also?

[barnabas1969]

Very funny! He "saw the light" after he got a job that paid him multiple millions (mostly in his signing bonus, but also in his annual bonuses). He works (worked) for one of the big banks (which shall remain nameless). He took a voluntary (and very lucrative) layoff because he got bored with his job. We used to work together, and he made much less money than I did back then. We've been best friends since the early 90's. He's a great guy, but I think it's totally understandable when a person goes from making less than $25K per year, to making millions... and they suddenly support the R's. Who wouldn't want a huge tax break when they make millions?

My mother was born in Lakeland and raised in Haines City (she was born in Lakeland because they didn't have a hospital in Haines City in 1929)... so I know the area around Davenport very well. I'd be happy to meet you the next time you come to Florida.

Did you know that most folks in the southeast were Democrats before the blacks wanted equal rights back in the 60's? Suddenly, around the time that the federal government passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the southern Democrats switched parties. Weird that working (and mostly poor) people switched parties, don't you think?

I don't know what the influence was in New Hampshire. I'll see what I can find.

I really hope you realize that my posts are all in good spirit. I've offended some people here before because they didn't understand that. I enjoy a good debate. I have my beliefs, and you have yours. And that's OK.

[lithium630]

Absolutely. It's all in fun. This is the best forum for it because people who are not interested do not have to read it, versus making everyone in the room uncomfortable. I have my own theory about why people are democrats. To me there are three types of Democrats. The first (and largest group) are the leaches that I have spoken so much about. They think the government owes them everything and they contribute nothing to society. The second is the group born to wealth, or who never really had to work a normal job, like Hollywood. To them it's not a big deal to pay a 50+% tax rate because they can just go make another movie for 20 million. Typically they think they are smarter than everyone else so the government needs to take care of the stupid. The last group were born into it. My mother is a democrat because her father always told her that democrats help people and republicans help businesses. (Of course I completely disagree). I would say she is conservative on more issues but she has always been a democrat. Of course there are many other reasons. I'm only half serious.
I love Zell Miller's line "I didn't leave the Democratic party, the Democratic party left me".

[barnabas1969]

I don't think I'm any of those. I understand that a person's parents have a huge influence on their political party of choice (both R's and D's). My father was a Democrat. He always told me what he believed. He voted for Reagan though... and I disagreed, even though I was too young to vote. At that time, I was much too young to know what was going on, but Reagan just seemed like a big fat liar to me (now, I realize that most politicians are). I kept an open mind. I voted my conscience from the time I was able to vote, and never along party lines. Then GWB got elected... and I got more involved. I'm appalled by what has happened since 2000. Things need to change. Period.

[barnabas1969]

Oh... I guess I should mention this. In Florida, I have been very active in state politics. I'm a member of a group that is trying to get alimony laws changed in our state. The weird thing, for me, is that the Republicans support us (nearly 100%)... and the Democrats oppose us (about 90%). The only sense I can make out of that, since I don't think that alimony should be a partisan issue, is that the R's are pushing it due to their belief in "individual responsibility", and the D's oppose it due to their desire to protect the "underdog".

I've met with both R's and D's... and have testified in the state legislature (and will be doing so again in the next legislative session). My story gets an affirmative response from the R's (they promise to support us)... and usually makes the D's literally drop their jaws. My story is, apparently, very unusual. I got screwed in my divorce, to put it lightly.

So, I really do appreciate the R's support of our group. In fact, I plan to vote for a Republican candidate for county judge. I've met the guy personally... and he opposes alimony in most circumstances.

I'm the odd man out in my county. This county is where many of the country's high-tech defense weapons are designed, and many parts are also built here. It's also where we launched the space shuttle, and the Apollo missions. Defense is a huge part of the local economy... so, naturally, most folks here are R's.

I used to work for a defense contractor. I loved my job... lots of cool stuff to play with... but layoffs happened all the time, so I got out. My current job is totally independent of the DOD... and that's not a bad thing.

Oh... speaking of defense (and the military)... when the R's talk about saving money, and cutting the wasteful spending, why are they NEVER open to the idea of cutting military/defense spending? That's more than half of the US annual budget... and trust me, there's a LOT of waste. I'm sure there are companies that are bilking the military... but there's also the military's own procedures and policies to blame. You've heard about the crazy price for a military toilet seat, right? Well... I'm sure that the military specification for that toilet seat required extensive testing to make sure that it would perform perfectly... even in environments that no human could survive. Some of the specifications are ridiculous, to say the least. Trust me, there's a reason why a quad "OR" gate costs $1.00 at Radio Shack (much less if ordered in bulk on the internet), and the same device costs the military $100.00 each (in bulk). Where I worked, we had identical commercial, and military/aerospace products. The ONLY difference between them was the testing required, and the price.

[lithium630]

2000 was the first election I was eligible to vote, and the first time I ever started to pay attention. I didn't know whether I was going to vote for Gore or Bush until the final days. In the end I was glad I voted for Bush because I think Gore lost his mind. I am grateful that he invented the internet though. I definitely did not agree with everything Bush did in office, but I agree even less with Obama. I do think it's funny how many people who voted for Obama now complain about Obamacare. He was pretty clear about what he wanted to do while campaigning. (except gay marriage, it was obvious he lied about being against gay marriage while campaigning). I'm all for gay marriage anyway so only the lie bothers me. I understand they all do it but it's still no excuse.
As for NH, it marches to it's own drum. It's a mix of traditional conservatives and and huge influx of Massachusetts "refugees". They try to escape the high taxes and Mass socialism then they vote to make NH the same way. Lately though it has been swinging too far to the right, toward the crazy Tea Party people. I (hopefully) see some backlash toward them coming.

[barnabas1969]

OK... I know it's a big joke that Gore said he invented the Internet. But, if you watch the whole video (or listen to the whole audio), you will understand that when he said "we invented the Internet", that he meant "we, the United States". And that is the truth. The Internet started as the ARPANET. Look it up.

Gore lost his mind?!?!?! Wow. Bush didn't have one to lose!

I hope you're right... that there will be a backlash against the Tea Party. And soon. Those people are crazy... and obviously funded by big money (Koch brothers).

[barnabas1969]

Holy cow... Gore really did "invent" the Internet... at least legislatively. See quote below from Wikipedia:

In the wake of ARPANET being formally decommissioned on 28 February 1990, Vinton Cerf wrote the following lamentation, entitled "Requiem of the ARPANET"[14] :

It was the first, and being first, was best,
but now we lay it down to ever rest.
Now pause with me a moment, shed some tears.
For auld lang syne, for love, for years and years
of faithful service, duty done, I weep.
Lay down thy packet, now, O friend, and sleep.

-Vinton Cerf

Senator Albert Gore, Jr. began to craft the High Performance Computing and Communication Act of 1991 (commonly referred to as "The Gore Bill") after hearing the 1988 report toward a National Research Network submitted to Congress by a group chaired by Leonard Kleinrock, professor of computer science at UCLA. The bill was passed on 9 December 1991 and led to the National Information Infrastructure (NII) which Al Gore called the "information superhighway".

[lithium630]

Wow that was a joke. I guess it doesn't translate well to the screen. As far as Bush goes, it was the liberal media who defined him as stupid. People liked him personally, even if they disagreed with his politics so it was their best attack. He certainly helped sometimes when he misspoke, but eloquece is not the only definition of intelligence. They did the same thing to Ronald Reagan.

[makryger]

While we're talking about voting, florida, individual responsibility, and the 2000 election, I just thought I'd throw in my thoughts- that I think all of this voter id law stuff that is happening is very unnerving, and a threat to democracy in general. (Mostly) republicans are taking something that is practically a non-issue, and using it to disenfranchise a lot of people. They say they are protecting the country from legions of illegal immigrants who are trying to vote, but I really believe its a guise to reduce the number of people who would legally vote against them. I'm just amazed that a party who believes so much in the constitution and individual rights is willing to risk the very basis for our democracy in order to prevent a tiny issue. Governor Scott forcefully defended his position, saying they identified FIFTY people who illegally voted in 2008. As an example, in Miami Dade County, at least a quarter of 1600 identified as non-voters sent in proof of eligibility. The other 75% never responded, although we cant know which of these were actually eligible, or who actually did try to vote. So Florida is creating new hurdles for thousands of people to vote, in order to prevent 50 illegals from voting. I'm not too happy about that.

Incidentally, they performed a similarly flawed voter purge in 2000 and 2004 as well, which targeted felons. The 2000 list was said to have disenfranchised anywhere from 1000-20,000 voters in the Florida 2000 election. And Bush won there by less than 600 votes.

[lithium630]

Although I respect your opinion, I don't understand it at all. I don't see any harm in reducing voter fraud. As you yourself said, Bush won by approximately 600 votes. It doesn't take a lot of fraud to make a difference. You can't function in this country without an I'D so how is it a barrier to legal voting? Obviously the democrats have something to gain. They support fraudulent votes but try to block military votes.

[barnabas1969]

Bush won in Florida? That's news to me... unless you mean that he won by the vote of the Supreme Court. Please explain to me how a court that is supposed to decide ONLY issues of constitutionality was able to order a state to stop a recount of ballots. There's nothing in the constitution about recounts... and each state has a right to decide how to handle the presidential election. The R's love to talk about states' rights, but when it comes down to it, the R's will do whatever is in their own best interest... no the best interest of a state or a citizen.

As for Bush's intelligence, or lack thereof... it's really a stretch to say that the "liberal media" painted him in that light. I think Bush was a puppet. And there were some very wealthy people pulling his strings.

Speaking of "intelligence"... I saw Colin Powell on The Daily Show the other day. Jon Stewart was asking him about his presentation to the UN... you know... the one about the WMD that didn't exist... the ones that were used to justify attacking Iraq. Powell was saying that he didn't know at the time, how flawed the intelligence was. I think that's BS. I watched that whole presentation live. I sat the whole time in disbelief. If I doubted the "intelligence" that was being presented, how could a man like Colin Powell not have known?

As for the voter purge... I've been reading about it, and it does look very suspicious. I haven't formed a strong opinion about it yet though.

[makryger]

I of course believe that illegal immigrants shouldn't be allowed to vote. And I recognize that democrats have just as much to gain from keeping this demographic on the ballot as republicans do by removing them. I don't approve of democrats preventing military votes either.

But in this specific case, you have to be realistic about who the law affects. If I told you that we could eliminate every illegal voter on the register in the US, everyone would be happy with it. What if I then told you that we could eliminate every illegal voter, but for every 1 illegal voter we stop, we would also be required to stop 10 legal voters from voting? That is what I disapprove of. In the effort to clean the ranks, Florida is creating sometimes insurmountable hurdles for american citizens to vote.

I work in medicine, and whenever we are evaluating test results, we have to keep in mind that there will be true positives (those who actually have a disease, and test positive for it), and there are false positives (those who don't have the disease, and yet they test positive for it). Then we must decide, is the consequence of getting a positive test result- like undergoing dangerous procedures or taking dangerous medications- worth the risk of having a bunch of people having these procedures/medications who don't need them. Back to the voter situation, yes, we have found a small number of true positives (illegal voters), but the false positive rate (legal voters who are being incorrectly identified) is huge- 20-25%. I just don't think its worth it. Lithium, I dont disagree with anything you said, it seems we just have different thresholds as to how willing we are to disenfranchise real voters in an effort to identify the fake ones.

[lithium630]

Lithium, I dont disagree with anything you said, it seems we just have different thresholds as to how willing we are to disenfranchise real voters in an effort to identify the fake ones.

That ususally seems to be the case. The main issues should be common sense but it's the difference in details that people focus on. I just disagree with the whole premise that legal voters would have trouble voting. I don't see that happening to any real extent.

Barnabas, what people choose to ignore about the 2000 Florida election is the legal battle began with Al Gore playing games to win. Gore only contested the results in the 5 most democatric counties. Obviously if he was to pick up missing votes, he would most likely gain in those counties. Bush argued that the recount should be state wide to be accurate. If you recall there were multiple recounts done. I'm amazed at how Bush got blamed for the legal battle.

[barnabas1969]

I'm not blaming Bush for the legal battle... just Bush's buddies in the Supreme Court for intervening. SCOTUS had no business dictating the recount in the state of Florida. I would have been OK with a statewide recount. Just in case you didn't already know... Gore won the final recount... but it didn't matter because the Supreme Court ordered it to stop.

I have a difficult time understanding how requiring a state ID would stop voters from registering too. But... it's no big deal for me to pay $10.00 for a state ID card (if I don't already have a drivers license). For a truly poor person though, $10.00 could be an insurmountable obstacle.

But... Rick Scott's voter purge takes that to a new level. They are wiping off mostly valid (and mostly Democrat) voters from the rolls. If the voter doesn't get the notice, or doesn't respond by the due date for some other reason, they are SOL on election day. And... this is to remove 50 illegal voters from the rolls of a state with millions of voters?

[lithium630]

Too be honest I can't say that I've heard of the voter purge you guys are talking about. I'll have to look it up. It would be unfair to act like this is only a problem with Republicans though. In the last election there were numerous complaints of the black panthers intimidating people and preventing them from voting. Some how Obama's attorney general refused to prosecute. Shocker.

[barnabas1969]

I don't know... it sure seems like the Black Panthers wouldn't have much influence in mostly-white neighborhoods.

[lithium630]

Would you dismiss it so quickly if it were Republicans trying to intimidate Democrats at the poles? Do a search for "black panthers voter intimidation".