Like WMC? Don't Upgrade to Win8

[trooper11]

Trying to force feed everybody an interface/experience that nobody wants is stupid. Microsoft needs to unwad their panties and come up with a different idea. Find something that people actually want, then unify it. And don't screw up the one market you dominate in the process.

For one thing, I simply disagree that nobody wants the interface they are using now for WP. Why is it that no one cares to even educate themselves a little bit on this topic. I hear the same thing from others just because its the easy answer. It seems like a broken record having to respond to the same argument. Basically, there are alot of reasons WP hasn't taken off yet, the least of which is due to the UI being rejected by regular consumers.

Secondly, I really don't know how MS could make everyone happy. MS cant change the desktop without being rejected by many power users. They cant offer a hybrid like they are now, because it still messes with the desktop too much. I guess the only option that would keep all power users happy would be two separate OSes. That defeats the whole purpose of unified interfaces across devices and fragments any app market MS would like to build. If they simply stick their head in the sand and ignore the tablet market, you will almost certainly accelerate the decline of windows and laptops

In the end, I think its MS' legacy support and slow, evolutionary process, that will kill the platform. It has kept them going up till now, but the problem is that it leads to a slow death. But for some, that's exactly what they want, so there you go. MS is trying something different, sticking its neck out in order to make a new path. We will have to see if it pays off.

[bobbob]

one day you will realise that you guys are not Microsoft's target market. never have been, never will be. Microsoft is catering for 80% of the market, you're in the 20%. any benefits are incidental

and from microsofts point of view thats entirely the right strategy

[adam1991]

+1

[richard1980]

For one thing, I simply disagree that nobody wants the interface they are using now for WP. Why is it that no one cares to even educate themselves a little bit on this topic. I hear the same thing from others just because its the easy answer. It seems like a broken record having to respond to the same argument. Basically, there are alot of reasons WP hasn't taken off yet, the least of which is due to the UI being rejected by regular consumers.

First, I didn't say nobody wants the UI. I said nobody wants the unified experience/interface. There is one key requirement to having a unified experience/interface, and that is the requirement that people actually have at least one of the other products that use the same interface (i.e., a Windows Phone or a Windows tablet), and that's where the entire problem is. Microsoft's market share in both the smartphone and tablet markets is less than 2% in each market, whereas their computer OS market share is about 85%. Google and Apple combined have a market share of 80-90% in the smartphone market, and nearly 100% in the tablet market. So when you look at what devices people actually own, the majority of people that own a computer are running a Microsoft OS, and the majority of people that own either a smartphone or tablet are running iOS or Android. Combined together, the majority of people that own a computer and either a smartphone or tablet are running at least two different interfaces made by at least two different companies. So the entire "unified experience/interface" idea goes out the window. There's simply no way Microsoft can unify Windows with both iOS and Android (unless of course Apple, Google, and Microsoft all get together and develop one unified interface/experience, and that's not going to happen), and if people aren't buying Windows Phones or Windows tablets, there's no unified interface for the majority of people.

Instead of unifying the three products, two of which nobody is buying (because believe it or not, people want the competitor's product(s) more), Microsoft should be focusing on coming up with phone and tablet offerings that people actually want. Once Microsoft has identified exactly what people want, then they can work on unifying everything. Unfortunately, what they've done now is the exact opposite. They've found something that nobody wants, and in an effort to boost their market share in the smartphone and tablet markets, they've decided to force this interface onto the PC customers (obviously in the hopes that more exposure will cause people to learn to like it, and therefore could potentially lead to customers moving away from iOS and Android smartphones and tablets). The only problem is this comes with a big risk. Microsoft is risking their computer OS market share in the process.

Secondly, I really don't know how MS could make everyone happy. MS cant change the desktop without being rejected by many power users. They cant offer a hybrid like they are now, because it still messes with the desktop too much. I guess the only option that would keep all power users happy would be two separate OSes. That defeats the whole purpose of unified interfaces across devices and fragments any app market MS would like to build. If they simply stick their head in the sand and ignore the tablet market, you will almost certainly accelerate the decline of windows and laptops

No, 2 OS's isn't necessary. The whole point is that there should not be any unified experience/interface at all (for right now). After Microsoft can actually identify what it is that people want, then unifying is the correct step. But not right now. Right now they are just f'ing up the computer OS....they are unifying something people want with something people don't want. Unify something people want with something people want.

[trooper11]

First, I didn't say nobody wants the UI. I said nobody wants the unified experience/interface. There is one key requirement to having a unified experience/interface, and that is the requirement that people actually have at least one of the other products that use the same interface (i.e., a Windows Phone or a Windows tablet), and that's where the entire problem is. Microsoft's market share in both the smartphone and tablet markets is less than 2% in each market, whereas their computer OS market share is about 85%.

So your basically saying that a unified interface should only be tackled once a company has significant share in the three markets? Its a chicken and the egg paradox. MS shouldn't try to unify these interfaces because they don't hold enough share in phones and tablets and yet if you could share an interface at some level between them, it could be a feature to sell more people on your phones and tablets. Notice how Google and Apple use the fact that tablets and phones share the same interface to push the ecosystem? Notice how Apple especially enjoys to lock users into everything Apple? Your advocating for MS to just step back and wait until they can gain share in those markets by not trying to offer a compelling ecosystem of their own. Its not like MS can migrate windows as it is now to phones or tablets, its going to require some pain in transition.

Instead of unifying the three products, two of which nobody is buying (because believe it or not, people want the competitor's product(s) more), Microsoft should be focusing on coming up with phone and tablet offerings that people actually want. Once Microsoft has identified exactly what people want, then they can work on unifying everything. Unfortunately, what they've done now is the exact opposite. They've found something that nobody wants, and in an effort to boost their market share in the smartphone and tablet markets, they've decided to force this interface onto the PC customers (obviously in the hopes that more exposure will cause people to learn to like it, and therefore could potentially lead to customers moving away from iOS and Android smartphones and tablets). The only problem is this comes with a big risk. Microsoft is risking their computer OS market share in the process.

You just got through saying that you weren't saying that nobody wants the ui and yet right here you say it again. 'They've found something that nobody wants' - if you are still talking about convergence, try to make that clear, because it doesn't sound like that here.

From what I have seen about the reasons for WP having such a sluggish start, it is not because 'nobody wants' it. Maybe you don't want it, but I really think your making a poor assumption that the problem is a poor OS ui. What they need is time. Time for the apps to reach critical mass (i.e. getting all the hot apps that are on ios and android - heck they passed 80k in apps faster then anyone else did), time for high end 'hero' phones to emerge (Nokia was the first with the Lumia 900), time for sales people around these cell stores to actually push the phones (ms just recently started offering bonuses to these sales reps, something that has been offered for Android phones since the beginning), and time for real marketing to sink in (MS is just this year going to really push the marketing). This is for another debate though, so if you would like to continue that, id be happy to elsewhere.

My point is that I believe they have a solid base with WP. I also think that Metro is a solid base for tablets. I think that MS needs something to offer consumers as an edge over the competition and convergence is one of those things. Consumers like simplicity and if you can offer them a away to access any file they need across a phone, tablet or home computer, access their other profile info across these three screens, and something that can offer them flexibility to run the same system at home or take it with them on the road/work, you have potential for a winner.

The desktop platform is the toughest nut to crack here. I definitely think there is room for improvement here, but including Metro here is a good idea for MS ultimately. They can leverage the success of their desktop to convince app developers that they need to be in Metro. That will mean more for tablet and phones as well since devs will be able to port these things back and forth alot easier then if they were separate pieces. It also, as you pointed out, means that alot of people will get to see the UI in action. I completely agree that this is all very risky, but don't you think MS has to take some risks at this point? Don't people like to dog MS for taking conservative, evolutionary steps in their OS designs? All we hear about is how the pc market is stagnating on its way to serious decline, windows right along with it. So if that's the case, it seems like time is against MS. They need to move now before the tablet and smartphone markets really are too far out of their reach.

No, 2 OS's isn't necessary. The whole point is that there should not be any unified experience/interface at all (for right now). After Microsoft can actually identify what it is that people want, then unifying is the correct step. But not right now. Right now they are just f'ing up the computer OS....they are unifying something people want with something people don't want. Unify something people want with something people want.

So what do people want then? It seems to me that 'people' want an ecosystem that makes it easy to move their digital life from one device to another. Just look to Apple to see that. Do really think MS can afford to wait? If they don't try now, it would be what, another 3 years for the next OS? Where will Apple and Google be at that point?

Look, no one is saying its perfect. Its not going to be pretty during the transition. But I do think that MS needed to take a chance in this area. The key is that they stay aggressive improving the system going forward.

[cjmccarthy72]

I noticed that with this month's "Window's The Official Magazine" was a nice glossy insert booklet from MS, "It's Time to Move to Windows 7!" - funny in so many different ways.....

[trooper11]

lol well isn't XP still the most widely used OS?

[adam1991]

lol well isn't XP still the most widely stolen OS?

There, FTFY.

[newfiend]

I have a WP7.. I like the Metro Design and it's straight forward and easy to use. I think it's great for a Phone or Tablet PC. For a desktop pc.. I'm not sure yet..
I haven't tried Windows 8 .. I may upgrade my Desktop PC at some point to Windows 8.. It will depend on if it offers me anything above what Windows 7 does.
For My HTPC though I may just use Windows 7. I don't see any compelling reason to move to Win8 Pro, have my DVD playback in WMP removed..etc..

I guess at this point for me it's a wait and see.. Once RTM is out I'll wait a bit and see how it's recieved by others before upgrading. I just hope it has a lot of polish put on it before RTM. So far I'm not super Impressed. I would like to get a Windows Tablet once they are out though with Windows 8, that may make me change my mind on using it on my desktop pc.. we shall see..
newfiend~

[richard1980]

So your basically saying that a unified interface should only be tackled once a company has significant share in the three markets?

Not necessarily a significant share, but at least a share that matters. Something that says people actually want your product. The 2% market share that Microsoft currently has doesn't matter, and it says people don't want the products.

MS shouldn't try to unify these interfaces because they don't hold enough share in phones and tablets and yet if you could share an interface at some level between them, it could be a feature to sell more people on your phones and tablets.

I'm not saying that Microsoft shouldn't try to unify the interfaces. I'm saying Microsoft shouldn't try to unify the interfaces when nobody wants 2 out of the 3 products. Don't drag in features of those two products into the one product that people are actually buying. Leave the features out of the one product and go back to the drawing board on the other two. Come up with a new idea for those two items, and see what happens. If consumers bite, then think about unifying those interfaces.

The end of your statement is what I have a problem with. "it could be a feature to sell more people on your phones and tablets". If Microsoft was a sandwich shop, they'd be selling a ham sandwich, turd chips, and a turd smoothie. Microsoft's idea of unification is to add turds to the ham sandwich and hope that people like it enough to start buying turd chips and turd smoothies. That's the wrong answer.

Notice how Google and Apple use the fact that tablets and phones share the same interface to push the ecosystem? Notice how Apple especially enjoys to lock users into everything Apple?

Notice how Google and Apple took it one step at a time. They introduced a product, waited for it to take hold in the market, then took features of that product and integrated those features into another product, which then led to even more success. What did they not do? They didn't introduce a product, figure out nobody is buying it, and then decide to unify their #1 selling product with the stuff that nobody is buying.

Your advocating for MS to just step back and wait until they can gain share in those markets by not trying to offer a compelling ecosystem of their own. Its not like MS can migrate windows as it is now to phones or tablets, its going to require some pain in transition.

No, they can offer an ecosystem of their own...but it needs to be an ecosystem that people actually want and will buy. Nobody is buying the ecosystem right now, so now is not the time to unify.

You just got through saying that you weren't saying that nobody wants the ui and yet right here you say it again. 'They've found something that nobody wants' - if you are still talking about convergence, try to make that clear, because it doesn't sound like that here.

To make it clear, people that want a phone don't want a Microsoft phone. People that want a tablet don't want a Microsoft tablet. People that want a computer OS want a Microsoft OS. In short, people don't want a unified experience from Microsoft (since unification requires owning at least 2 of the 3 products). And I'm obviously excluding the small percentage of people that actually do own either a Windows phone or tablet.

From what I have seen about the reasons for WP having such a sluggish start, it is not because 'nobody wants' it. Maybe you don't want it, but I really think your making a poor assumption that the problem is a poor OS ui. What they need is time. Time for the apps to reach critical mass (i.e. getting all the hot apps that are on ios and android - heck they passed 80k in apps faster then anyone else did), time for high end 'hero' phones to emerge (Nokia was the first with the Lumia 900), time for sales people around these cell stores to actually push the phones (ms just recently started offering bonuses to these sales reps, something that has been offered for Android phones since the beginning), and time for real marketing to sink in (MS is just this year going to really push the marketing). This is for another debate though, so if you would like to continue that, id be happy to elsewhere.

Again, you are confusing "UI" with "unified UI". I've never said that people don't want the Windows Phone UI. I've said they don't want a Windows Phone or tablet. And it doesn't really matter why Windows Phone and tablet sales are sluggish, the point is people aren't buying them.

The desktop platform is the toughest nut to crack here. I definitely think there is room for improvement here, but including Metro here is a good idea for MS ultimately. They can leverage the success of their desktop to convince app developers that they need to be in Metro. That will mean more for tablet and phones as well since devs will be able to port these things back and forth alot easier then if they were separate pieces. It also, as you pointed out, means that alot of people will get to see the UI in action. I completely agree that this is all very risky, but don't you think MS has to take some risks at this point? Don't people like to dog MS for taking conservative, evolutionary steps in their OS designs? All we hear about is how the pc market is stagnating on its way to serious decline, windows right along with it. So if that's the case, it seems like time is against MS. They need to move now before the tablet and smartphone markets really are too far out of their reach.

I wouldn't call diving headfirst into an empty pool "risky". I'd call it stupid. And I think the phone market is already out of Microsoft's reach. Microsoft should have been thinking about this many years ago, but they weren't. Now it's too late. As for the tablet market, I think they've got a chance. But they haven't introduced the tablet OS that people will buy.

As for the PC market stagnating, it's important to realize that PCs aren't losing ground to Mac. Desktop and laptop computers are losing ground to tablets. If Microsoft wants to compensate for the loss of desktop/laptop OS sales, they need to introduce a tablet OS that people will actually buy.

So what do people want then? It seems to me that 'people' want an ecosystem that makes it easy to move their digital life from one device to another. Just look to Apple to see that. Do really think MS can afford to wait? If they don't try now, it would be what, another 3 years for the next OS? Where will Apple and Google be at that point?

Yes, I think people do want an ecosystem that makes it easy to move their digital life from one device to another. But this move doesn't accomplish that. Trying to shove a losing product down everyone's throat isn't going to help. If Microsoft wants to make it easy to move everyone's digital life from their phone or tablet to their computer, Microsoft need to be making everyone's computer work better with Apple and Google products and services. That's the unified ecosystem that people want....the kind that unifies the products people actually own. While people are happy with their unified iOS/Android/Windows ecosystem, Microsoft could still be pursing market share in the other two markets.

[Ack]

Richard - that sandwich analogy almost brought me to tears...too funny.

[newfiend]

Richard - that sandwich analogy almost brought me to tears...too funny.

I agree..funny! Glad they don't serve those options at my local Subway...lol

Sent from my WP7 using Board Express

[trooper11]

Not necessarily a significant share, but at least a share that matters. Something that says people actually want your product. The 2% market share that Microsoft currently has doesn't matter, and it says people don't want the products.

I'm not saying that Microsoft shouldn't try to unify the interfaces. I'm saying Microsoft shouldn't try to unify the interfaces when nobody wants 2 out of the 3 products. Don't drag in features of those two products into the one product that people are actually buying. Leave the features out of the one product and go back to the drawing board on the other two. Come up with a new idea for those two items, and see what happens. If consumers bite, then think about unifying those interfaces.

The end of your statement is what I have a problem with. "it could be a feature to sell more people on your phones and tablets". If Microsoft was a sandwich shop, they'd be selling a ham sandwich, turd chips, and a turd smoothie. Microsoft's idea of unification is to add turds to the ham sandwich and hope that people like it enough to start buying turd chips and turd smoothies. That's the wrong answer.

lol alright, that was a hilarious analogy, credit for that one.

my problem with your statement is that your now saying no one wants a windows 8 tablet, something that doesn't exist yet. look i still disagree that WP is a dead end, but its obvious we will just have to agree to disagree on that point for now.

Notice how Google and Apple took it one step at a time. They introduced a product, waited for it to take hold in the market, then took features of that product and integrated those features into another product, which then led to even more success. What did they not do? They didn't introduce a product, figure out nobody is buying it, and then decide to unify their #1 selling product with the stuff that nobody is buying.

Now wait a second, MS has windows as its established platform, how the heck do you translate that to a smartphone or tablet? Lets see, MS tried a more conservative approach back with xp for tablets and the tablet features of 7, guess what, it didn't work. So their next attempt is to bring their ideas from wp to tablets and the desktop via a metro ui.

Google and Apple are starting from the mobile space and working back to pcs. Google starts with phones, moves to tablets and now works on the pc space with Chrome OS. Apple is slowly migrating iOS into their Macs, bringing them full circle as well. MS trying to emulate that same path. Heck, you include Google in your point when they aren't exactly lighting the world on fire in the tablet space where its an Apple dominated market. ICS was the first real attempt by Google to offer tablet designed features. Before that point, Google cared little about catering to that form factor and yet you have seen countless Android tablets released.

Not to mention the fact that MS has to work quicker then the other two at this point. Do you really think they can wait a few years for WP to have a big share of the market?

No, they can offer an ecosystem of their own...but it needs to be an ecosystem that people actually want and will buy. Nobody is buying the ecosystem right now, so now is not the time to unify.

huh? the ecosystem doesn't exist yet, so how can they be buying it? Apple is the only one with a top to bottom ecosystem while Google is close with phones, tablets, and pc services. MS has pcs, pc services, and phones now.

To make it clear, people that want a phone don't want a Microsoft phone. People that want a tablet don't want a Microsoft tablet. People that want a computer OS want a Microsoft OS. In short, people don't want a unified experience from Microsoft (since unification requires owning at least 2 of the 3 products). And I'm obviously excluding the small percentage of people that actually do own either a Windows phone or tablet.

That's all assumptions. How you know people would not want a tablet from Microsoft is beyond me. of course you could assume it, based on everyone hating MS i guess. This all boils down to you taking WP sales to mean that no one would want a MS phone or a MS tablet.

Again, you are confusing "UI" with "unified UI". I've never said that people don't want the Windows Phone UI. I've said they don't want a Windows Phone or tablet. And it doesn't really matter why Windows Phone and tablet sales are sluggish, the point is people aren't buying them.

wait, so your saying people would want the wp ui, they just don't want a MS branded phone or tablet? im not sure how you separate the two. if they don't like the phones as you say, they don't like the ui either right? Oh and since there are no windows 8 tablets yet, are you trying to bring in tablets/convertibles that run windows 7? That's a whole different animal.

I wouldn't call diving headfirst into an empty pool "risky". I'd call it stupid. And I think the phone market is already out of Microsoft's reach. Microsoft should have been thinking about this many years ago, but they weren't. Now it's too late. As for the tablet market, I think they've got a chance. But they haven't introduced the tablet OS that people will buy.

As for the PC market stagnating, it's important to realize that PCs aren't losing ground to Mac. Desktop and laptop computers are losing ground to tablets. If Microsoft wants to compensate for the loss of desktop/laptop OS sales, they need to introduce a tablet OS that people will actually buy.

regarding the smartphone market, I agree that MS waited too long to respond. this is literally their last chance to make a push. the reason i think they still have a chance is because the market is still young. There is a huge consumer base of people that do not own a smartphone. The market is not saturated and it is not locked down by Apple or Google. But it does mean that MS has to push very hard to make progress (i.e. they have to move faster compared to the timetables Apple and Google enjoyed), competing against two very strong companies. I don't know if they can do it, but there is a chance.

regarding tablets, windows 8 is not a suitable tablet OS response then? i thought most people thought that was its main strength and the reason the desktop experience suffers.

Yes, I think people do want an ecosystem that makes it easy to move their digital life from one device to another. But this move doesn't accomplish that. Trying to shove a losing product down everyone's throat isn't going to help. If Microsoft wants to make it easy to move everyone's digital life from their phone or tablet to their computer, Microsoft need to be making everyone's computer work better with Apple and Google products and services. That's the unified ecosystem that people want....the kind that unifies the products people actually own. While people are happy with their unified iOS/Android/Windows ecosystem, Microsoft could still be pursing market share in the other two markets.

That's fair enough. You feel MS needs to back off from supporting phones and tablets via an OS/hardware and instead refocus on the pc market and doing whatever they can to integrate Google and Apple services in place of the ones they have developed (i.e. skydrive, zune, bing, etc, etc).

I just don't see that as possible. The biggest issue is that the reality is that both Apple and Google wont play nice with MS to a point that MS could offer any significant improvements that integrate their services. Apple is especially against that, they are pleased to focus on integrating services that work best across Iphone, iPad, and Macs, not on a windows pc. Google is a bit better about it since they have no pc-like platform of their own (of course they are trying with Chrome OS).

To me, the future is heading to closed ecosystems where a consumer buys into one piece of that ecosystem and is lead to other pieces of that ecosystem over time. once you start buying a bunch of content on one of these platforms, its very hard to justify moving to another platform and losing that content. That is happening now and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

[amador]

MS should have just ported WP7 to tablet and left the desktop OS alone. We could have ARM tablets right now. Ihope they work on the music and video app in Windows 8 is horrible. So is browsing on the metro app. I tested with an Acer Iconia and would browse back with the desktop verison of the browser. Wished MS would justmade a MC app for WP7 that would have ported to the tablet. But is the same company that never included Zune in WMC.

[trooper11]

I agree that WP should be the basis for their tablet interface. Metro basically is that. I also think that it would not have hurt them in the long run to have the option to disable the interface for the desktop pcs (or at least come up with a way to interact with it less then we do now). I get why they think they need to, but I don't think it was a must. I do however like the fact that on a tablet, I will still be able to access the desktop. In that environment, the roles reverse. I'm in the tablet environment of Metro mostly, but can jump into a desktop mode when I need to.

The problems you talk about are all poor apps. so if you fix the app problem, you fix alot of problems for some. WP8 takes on the same core as Windows 8, which means there is potential for much easier cross platform development. That certainly leads to you getting more apps you want, avoiding the bad ones.

The next beta will say alot.

[richard1980]

my problem with your statement is that your now saying no one wants a windows 8 tablet, something that doesn't exist yet.

I didn't say that. I said people don't want a Microsoft tablet.

That's all assumptions. How you know people would not want a tablet from Microsoft is beyond me. of course you could assume it, based on everyone hating MS i guess. This all boils down to you taking WP sales to mean that no one would want a MS phone or a MS tablet.

Microsoft has been in the tablet game for the last 10 years. 10 years later, and they have virtually no market share despite having products on the market.

regarding tablets, windows 8 is not a suitable tablet OS response then?

I think Metro is just fine for a tablet. It's not fine for a PC. A unified interface should be fine for all devices it is on.

Now wait a second, MS has windows as its established platform, how the heck do you translate that to a smartphone or tablet? Lets see, MS tried a more conservative approach back with xp for tablets and the tablet features of 7, guess what, it didn't work. So their next attempt is to bring their ideas from wp to tablets and the desktop via a metro ui.

I don't have a problem with Microsoft taking ideas from a phone and putting them on tablets. User interaction with a phone and a tablet is very similar, so it's natural for both devices to have similar UIs. I do have a problem with Microsoft trying to make a PC more like a phone or tablet, especially when they don't have the market share to justify it.

Google starts with phones, moves to tablets and now works on the pc space with Chrome OS

Guess what Google product is failing, despite the obvious demand for their tablets and phones? OK, that might be a bit hard to guess since Google has a number of things failing, so I'll just come out and say it....Chrome OS. Lesson learned: Just because a concept works for a phone or tablet doesn't mean it works for a computer.

Apple is slowly migrating iOS into their Macs

Now here's an example of a company that has very little market share, but at least it's growing a bit. Not being a Mac person, I really don't know how much influence iOS has in the Mac OS. However, if iOS works well on a Mac, then perhaps that's one reason why Mac has been gaining market share. And I'm just making an assumption here, but it appears to me that Apple didn't decide to integrate iOS into Mac until after it had taken hold in the phone and tablet markets.

Heck, you include Google in your point when they aren't exactly lighting the world on fire in the tablet space where its an Apple dominated market.

When was the last time you checked Google's tablet market share? Not only does Google have a significant market share (about 40-45% vs Apple's roughly 55%), but they are growing, and some analysts expect them to overtake Apple in the next few years.

the ecosystem doesn't exist yet, so how can they be buying it?

I'll rephrase. Nobody is buying the parts necessary to have a functional Microsoft ecosystem...e.g., Microsoft's phones and tablets. The only thing people are buying is the PC OS, and that's not an ecosystem.

wait, so your saying people would want the wp ui, they just don't want a MS branded phone or tablet? im not sure how you separate the two. if they don't like the phones as you say, they don't like the ui either right? Oh and since there are no windows 8 tablets yet, are you trying to bring in tablets/convertibles that run windows 7? That's a whole different animal.

I don't know if people want the UI or not, which is why I never said they don't want it. I am not going to say they do want it. I know absolutely nothing about consumer demand of the UI. What I do know is there is no demand for the products that utilize that UI, as evidenced by the poor sales of both Windows phones and tablets. There is certainly a possibility that people like the UI, but maybe they like a different UI better, or maybe they already have an iPhone, or maybe the UI just doesn't work with their other products, or maybe they get a better deal on a different phone. There are many reasons why someone could like the UI but not want the phone/tablet.

And no, I am not limiting this to just Windows 8. Microsoft has a history, and it shouldn't be ignored. It's not a different animal at all. While Metro is new to Windows, it is not new to the market.

You feel MS needs to back off from supporting phones and tablets via an OS/hardware and instead refocus on the pc market and doing whatever they can to integrate Google and Apple services in place of the ones they have developed (i.e. skydrive, zune, bing, etc, etc).

I feel that designing the PC portion of the ecosystem that people want means delivering a PC product that works well with the other products and services that people are using. And it just so happens that the majority of people are using Apple and Google phones and tablets. So what's a good ecosystem? The one that delivers a PC OS that integrates well with your iOS or Android phone/tablet.

[gcoupe]

@richard1980 - I don't think that you can justifiably lump together a windows 7 Tablet PC with a Windows 8 Tablet, as you seem to be doing.

You're right to say that the sales of Windows Tablets have never taken off (except in niche business markets to a small extent) in the 10 years that they've been available. And that's primarily because the Windows Desktop UI is a terrible design for a Tablet. It practically forces the use of a stylus.

So Metro is Microsoft's answer, and I think it will be a good one. It has a chance to finally get Microsoft into the tablet market, and I agree that it is likely to be Microsoft's last chance.

And I must say that running the Windows 8 Consumer Preview on my primary desktop has not been the dreadful experience that many people seem to find it to be. I don't miss the Start Button, the Start Screen is perfectly fine for me.

I expect to be upgrading our home computers to the final release of Windows 8. However, I will not be upgrading our HTPC. That's not because I object to paying a nominal sum for WMC 8, but because I object to paying a premium for Windows 8 Pro. An HTPC does not need the features of Windows 8 Pro, and I view Microsoft's marketing stance on this with distaste. I suspect they are deliberately wanting to kill off WMC.

In the bigger picture, I actually think that Windows 8 is shaping up to be a platform that will support both Desktops and Tablets to their fullest extent. I like the flexibility. I expect that my next computer purchase will be a Windows 8 Tablet. I personally would want to have one with a pressure sensitive stylus for some of my Desktop applications, but for much of its use, I expect to be using my fingers and Metro apps.

[mark1234]

wait, so your saying people would want the wp ui, they just don't want a MS branded phone or tablet? im not sure how you separate the two. if they don't like the phones as you say, they don't like the ui either right?

When iOS6 and iPhone 5 copy the WP7 interface for a long overdue home screen redesign, you know it will become the biggest seller since... well, since iOS5 and the iPhone 4S!

I own and love my WP7 just as much as I do 7MC. But I'm not hopeful for its future. Being beaten in market share by "other" isn't exactly a recipe for long term success. Single biggest failure about WP7 in my view: the branding that includes the words "Microsoft" and "Windows".

[trooper11]

I didn't say that. I said people don't want a Microsoft tablet.

Ah, so its the fact that no one would want anything Microsoft branded. Well that could be true, but the only way that changes is if MS continues to try and improve their image through products and marketing.

Microsoft has been in the tablet game for the last 10 years. 10 years later, and they have virtually no market share despite having products on the market.

That's exactly why something like win 8 was needed. The strategy of trying to shoehorn the traditional desktop into a tablet is just not going to work.

I think Metro is just fine for a tablet. It's not fine for a PC. A unified interface should be fine for all devices it is on.

That's a fair point. i hope MS makes improvements on the desktop side. maybe there is no perfect balance, but i think they can do some things to improve it.

I don't have a problem with Microsoft taking ideas from a phone and putting them on tablets. User interaction with a phone and a tablet is very similar, so it's natural for both devices to have similar UIs. I do have a problem with Microsoft trying to make a PC more like a phone or tablet, especially when they don't have the market share to justify it.

My feeling is that MS is trying to leverage their desktop success in order to encourage application devs to support them across all devices, which they hope will lead to more adoption of their tablets and phones. Since they aren't established in tablets or phones as you point out, they need something to get developers on board. To MS, what better way then to show them that they will be offering apps to a huge pool of desktop users along with the phone and tablet customers.

I'll rephrase. Nobody is buying the parts necessary to have a functional Microsoft ecosystem...e.g., Microsoft's phones and tablets. The only thing people are buying is the PC OS, and that's not an ecosystem.

again, this goes back your opinion that MS should not be in the tablet or smartphone markets. i dont know what the right move is, but if MS wants an ecosystem, it has to start now. they wont be able to try again later. WP is doing poorly now, but MS seems willing to keep pushing hard for long term success. You mentioned MS history, well the Xbox showed us that even though MS had to stick with big losses for a while, they came out very nicely long term. I'm not saying its guaranteed for WP, but I think MS is more then willing to stick it out.

I don't know if people want the UI or not, which is why I never said they don't want it. I am not going to say they do want it. I know absolutely nothing about consumer demand of the UI. What I do know is there is no demand for the products that utilize that UI, as evidenced by the poor sales of both Windows phones and tablets. There is certainly a possibility that people like the UI, but maybe they like a different UI better, or maybe they already have an iPhone, or maybe the UI just doesn't work with their other products, or maybe they get a better deal on a different phone. There are many reasons why someone could like the UI but not want the phone/tablet.

Exactly, that's what I was trying to say this whole time. If people like the UI well enough, then everything else can be improved. The platform has potential as long as the UI is compelling. Pair it with the right hardware and marketing and you can have success.

I feel that designing the PC portion of the ecosystem that people want means delivering a PC product that works well with the other products and services that people are using. And it just so happens that the majority of people are using Apple and Google phones and tablets. So what's a good ecosystem? The one that delivers a PC OS that integrates well with your iOS or Android phone/tablet.

But again, part of the problem with that is not up to MS at all. How could they possibly provide proper integration with say Apple services or Google services withing their own OS?

When iOS6 and iPhone 5 copy the WP7 interface for a long overdue home screen redesign, you know it will become the biggest seller since... well, since iOS5 and the iPhone 4S!

I own and love my WP7 just as much as I do 7MC. But I'm not hopeful for its future. Being beaten in market share by "other" isn't exactly a recipe for long term success. Single biggest failure about WP7 in my view: the branding that includes the words "Microsoft" and "Windows".

That is a sad reality. Some will simply ignore the quality of the product because of the MS name. That's completely unfair, but its life. All MS can do is keep aggressively pushing WP through high end hardware and software updates. I don't think its impossible to turn things around, but I don't think it'll be a quick march upward.

[newfiend]

MS branding always takes a beating.. When I got into computers I asked the guy teaching me about them what the difference between PC with windows (win 95 era) and a Mac? His answer was a Mac was a PC that "works". I remember many blue screen errors etc..with Windows 95. This just gave them a bad rep even then.. Its carried over to all their products since, even the good stuff they have made. I have a Zune HD.. Thing works perfect and that was where the first Metro UI came from. It was a very nice looking and performing piece of hardware and the Zune desktop software was just as nice IMO. But no one wanted one..why? Because MS made it. Everyone wanted or had an iPod. Apple just beat them to market with a compelling product that worked..well. The biggest complaint I have had with MS is that none if their products easily worked together. Apple had this covered since day one, MS sees this now and is trying to unify the experience so everything plays nice together. Hopefully they can succeed. I love my wp7 and I look forward to a windows tablet. But I'm also a apple non conformist.
newfiend

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