When is Ceton going to fix the macroblocking issue?

[barnabas1969]

EDIT: Please see the post at the following link. My issue may not have been Ceton's issue all along.
http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/vie ... 376#p16319

EDIT2: I have started another thread. I installed a HD HomeRun Prime tuner to compare to the Ceton... and I get the same issue. Here's the link: http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/vie ... f=7&t=1814

So... it's been 6 months since Eric Kotz from Ceton acknowledged that he was able to duplicate the macroblocking issue that plagues the InfiniTV tuner. The only feedback anyone has received from Ceton since that time is, "We're working on it." There has been confirmation from others that have dumped their Ceton InfiniTV and have replaced it with the Silicon Dust HD HomeRun Prime that the problem goes away when they get rid of the Ceton tuner.

So... if Silicon Dust can get it right, why can't Ceton??? Why does Ceton continue to remain silent on this issue? I've posted it in numerous threads here and on WEC. Erkotz is on all of those threads... and I'm sure he gets e-mail updates. I know he sees my posts. But still, no update.

Ceton, I want an answer. What's the status of this problem? What progress have you made? What else do you need from us to help you fix it?

EDIT: Since this thread is beginning to grow, I have added some pictures to show what this problem looks like. If your problem covers more of the screen than the line of distortion shown in the pictures below, you probably have a signal strength/quality problem. However, if your problem looks like the line of bad blocks streaming across the screen shown in these pictures... and only flashes on the screen for a second or two, then you may have the issue I'm describing here.

In this picture, you can see the horizontal line of blocks across Jon Stewart's chest.

This one's pretty obvious too. You can see the line of bad blocks near the bottom of the picture.

This one's a little harder to see because it's a dark scene, but if you look just below the actor's waist, you will see a black horizontal line.

It seems that the blocks are always made up of one of the colors on the screen... as if one block gets repeated across the screen.

[newfiend]

It would be nice if someone could at least explain to us why this happens. It's not a limited amount of people that have this issue. There are lots of customers with this issue. I know that Ceton doesn't want to release technical info but it would be nice if someone just said were still working on a fix..or we aren't sure yet..or anything. If it's a hardware issue can it be fixed? Or will it just need a firmware update? I love the tuner don't get me wrong, but some transparency with the customer base would be greatly appreciated.

Sent from my WP7 using Board Express

[FrankAZ]

I've been seeing something which looks as if it is the 'macroblocking' issue. It's new in the last few months and I had put it down to just CableCo signal reception and delivery issues. After reading about it in these forums the last couple of days I have compared recordings made last week of identical shows on my HTPC through my InfiniTV4 and my TiVo S3. (I was out of town and belt-and-braces recorded some shows I absolutely did not want to miss). I have now verified that the TiVo recordings are 'clean' and the HTPC recordings have occasional issues, which manifest as brief (1sec or less) corruptions across the screen which are a jagged 16-24 pixels tall (est.) and extend all or most of the way across the picture.

My TiVo and HTPC are coax peers - they receive exactly the same signal from adjacent outputs of a drop-amp. I suppose that internal splitters would present the signal to a tuner in a 2-tuner TiVo as ~3dB stronger than a tuner in a 4-tuner InfiniTv4. However, my reported signal strengths from the Ceton diagnostic tools are currently ~ -5dBmV and SNR of 36 so there ought to be plenty of headroom in the signals if I am to believe those numbers.

Because the signal records OK on the TiVo I am confident that the signal arriving on the coax at both the InfiniTV4 and TiVo is good. I'm going to rule out extraordinary faults with my coax cables since they are all new, clean, unabused, and outwardly perfect. So, these bursts of uncorrected errors must originate in the datapath between the mini-coax and the GMR head of my HDD. I am sure the error burst is represented in the recorded image rather than occurring in the HDD - Display datapath because the error bursts are repeated exactly if I replay the recording by skipping to several seconds before it.

I cannot rule out the possibility of some fault in my system outside the InfiniTV4, but the incidence of similar faults with other members of this forum, and the recent appearance of such behavior (since late 2011 maybe, certainly early 2012) is suggestive that the errors are being introduced on the InfiniTV4, or not being corrected in the PCIe between the InfiniTV4 and the mainboard/processor.

That leaves several major functional blocks on the InfiniTV4 in suspicion:

• The analog tuners and demodulator(s).
• The datapath to the CableCard
• The CableCard
• The datapath from the CableCard
• The PCIe implementation on the InfiniTV4.

The middle three could feasibly be some artifact of the CableCard, perhaps introduced by a CableCard firmware update unknown to me. I don't track such things. However, unless everyone else seeing the issue uses the same series of CableCard (mine are SA) perhaps that is unlikely.

All the bullets in my list but the CableCard itself could be influenced by the InfiniTV4, perhaps even as a firmware update which has changed the parameterization of the PCIe and other datapaths. I am heartened that the issue has only occurred recently, and has been seen widely, so I am inclined to believe that a InfiniTV4 firmware has introduced something different and sub-optimal. In that case I eagerly await a fix.

I recently (2 days ago) installed the 1.1.7.2 firmware and I have not seen any macroblocking since. Nor have I watched anything recorded since. So, maybe it has already been fixed.

Is there a thread somewhere where members are pooling knowledge of when 'macroblocking' occurs? Mobo type and BIOS version; Processor/Chipset; Slot on mobo used for InfiniTV4 (so that the actual PCIe host port can be deduced); InfiniTV4 firmware version; CableCard type and firmware; CableCo; Channel and whether encrypted or ClearQAM; etc?

It strikes me that until someone creates a rich dataset of systems which exhibit the problem then identifying the underlying cause and verifying a fix would be very labor intensive. For all we know it could be a funky interaction between the chipset PCIe training for a prior or original version of Ceton firmware working poorly with a new version of Ceton firmware. The mobo firmware would retain the PCIe training info indefinitely unless it saw a new device appear on that host port.

Frank.

[adam1991]

Because of the attention brought to this issue, I recently saw exactly one instance of this in a show. I validated it by rewinding and replaying several times, and it was the exact same artifact every time. (As I recall, it was on ABC Family, showing 8 Simple Rules.)

I have not seen any other instances of this, ever.

None of my recordings, anywhere, is anything other than copy-freely. I didn't even have the problem with Modern Family a while back. My cableco puts everything in the open, even Starz/Encore.

Had I not heard of this issue here, I would have dismissed this one-time artifact as typical digital "it happens" crap.

And for all I know, that particular instance was random, and had nothing to do with this. But from my eyeballs, it matched up with what you're describing.

Anyway. One more datum.

[STC]

Welcome home Frank!

[newfiend]

Welcome home Frank!

Agreed!!.. Seems like old times Doesn't it STC? lol
At any rate.. If pooling our data here on this thread for Ceton would help them resolve this issue.. I'm all in..
I guess the Question is.. Do they need this information?
If someone from Ceton could post here and let us know what data they would like from each of us I think we are all in agreement that we could collect and post that here, but since this has been an on going issue and they already know it exists my question would be do they need it?
If so let us know and I'll start collecting that data and post back with whatever is needed.
newfiend~

[lurch66]

I'm in as well. any testing or info/data points Ceton needs. Good to have you posting on TGB again Frank.

[J3ff]

Happens to me all the time. Annoying as fark.

[barnabas1969]

I edited my first post and included pictures to show what this problem looks like. I'm glad to see Frank here, and he posed some good questions. I don't think this has anything to do with the CableCARD because it happens to both the Cisco/SA cards and the Motorola cards.

At least one user has replaced their Ceton InfiniTV tuner with an HDHR Prime, using the same CableCARD and the same coax cable... and the problem went away.

I sincerely hope that Ceton chimes in here. I would really like to know that this issue is a high priority for them, and not just something that has been pushed to the back burner so they can focus their attention on the Q, Echo, and UCrypt.

Further, I agree with Frank that it may be helpful to compile a list of common components that cause this issue... but only if Ceton sees some value in doing so.

This happens to me on some shows as frequently as once every few seconds. I see it almost every time I watch a show that was recorded with the Ceton tuner. My ClearQAM and ATSC tuners are highest priority for the channels that I can receive on them, so I do not see it on shows that are recorded with those tuners.

[barnabas1969]

Update: I loaded firmware 1.1.7.2 a few days ago. I am watching CNN right now. I see the issue frequently on CNN. My signal strength right now on CNN is 0.1dB, and SNR is 35.8. I have been watching it for about 30 minutes... usually this would be plenty of time to see at least one of them. I have seen several small distortions, but none of them were a line all the way across the screen. I've seen a couple of very quick lines that are similar... but none have gone all the way across the screen. Perhaps this new firmware has improved the problem somehow?

EDIT: Never mind... I switched to Comedy Central HD. I only had to watch for a few minutes before I saw this. Signal level -3.4dB, SNR 35.2.

[Diverge]

I have this problem too. Have had a ticket open for months. 1st tier of support acted as if they never heard of the problem, which doesn't sit right with me since they supposedly reproduced the problem in their labs like 6 months ago, but nothing has been said about it publicly since then. Any and all posts on any forums about the issue are avoided by the one guy that tells us anything , so I guess they aren't allowed to talk about it. Which again doesn't sit well.

My ticket was escalated to engineering after they had me do a bunch of useless stuff, to never be updated again.

[barnabas1969]

Yeah, and when I complain too loudly about it, my posts get censored. Maybe I'm a jerk and I'm not being polite on the forum... breaking the forum rules on etiquette... but after six months, I think I have a right to be rude. I'm just telling it like it is. Why should I hold back any punches? I'm a paying customer of Ceton and they are ignoring me. To tell the truth, if the HDHR Prime had four (or more) tuners with a single CableCARD, I would have already switched.

[STC]

barnabas, we had this discussion on PM. You posted at least three other posts all with the same question related to this post. You also used caps, bold font to shout. The shouting was removed and we asked you to edit or remove the other posts, which you chose not to.
We then took action to clean up the forum. One post was left (this one) to which you are getting a decent response.

Everyone here plays by the rules. We cannot make an exception with you.

If you feel this is censorship, you need to think again.

[adam1991]

OK, to be fair what I saw one time recently is not what barnabas showed above--all very straight lines and blocky. Mine was, however, in the exact same spot on the screen.

So maybe mine was a random thing that merely resembled the actual problem.

[barnabas1969]

STC, I was posting in those threads because erkotz had posted there previously. My goal was to prove that even though erkotz gets my posts via e-mail updates, he still refuses to comment. You can see that he posted responses to other questions (he even responded to me, but not about this issue) after I posted those comments/questions, but he seems to have intentionally skipped over my valid questions about a problem that has been going on for quite some time. I'm sure that Ceton is monitoring this thread as well, since it mentions Ceton in the topic title... and they haven't posted here either. I think I've proved my point that Ceton refuses to address this issue.

A message to Ceton: My warrantee expired about a month ago. I waited six months for a resolution from you because I believed that you cared about your customers. Now, I'm out of warrantee. Maybe I should have insisted on a refund several months ago? Want to give me a refund now? The refund would be about double the current price of an InfiniTv4... that would easily pay for a new HDHR Prime, or maybe two. If you give me a refund, I'll stop complaining and just become a happy Silicon Dust customer.

But, I'm still willing to work with you to resolve the issue if you'll show some good faith and actually respond to my requests. As a customer who paid for your product and expected it to work at least as well as my old "crappy" Scientific Atlanta DVR, I expected to not be ignored if there was a problem. I wouldn't have become such a jerk if you had acted like you cared about this issue. I'm willing to send you information, dumps, and to do whatever is necessary to fix this... but you just keep ignoring me.

When I finally complained loud enough to get Pam Hammer to call me, she told me that this is a "very rare" issue that very few users experience... and even those who experience it only see it maybe once every week or two. Unfortunately, she called me while I was at the Florida State Capitol building to lobby my representatives and senators on an issue that is near and dear to my heart (and my wallet)... so I couldn't talk much with her. She was surprised that I see it every 10-15 minutes on average. However, as you can see by reading the forums here and on WEC, there are many users who have this issue.

I believe that there are many more people with this issue than the number of people who have complained about it. I think that MOST users who have this issue simply do not complain about it. They probably assume that it's a problem with the cable company... or they don't think it matters much because it only stays on the screen for a second. But I feel that when I spend a considerable amount of money to build an HTPC, I should get better quality than this. Especially considering that the ONLY reason I built an HTPC is due to the existence of the Ceton InfiniTV tuner. Yes, I thank Ceton for spurring the development of multi-tuner CableCARD devices. But I also expect their product to work correctly.

I think we customers deserve at least an explanation of the problem, and why it is so difficult to fix. We also deserve a commitment from Ceton that they WILL fix this issue. An estimated completion date would be very nice too. So far, Ceton seems to be ignoring this issue. Please prove me wrong! I think a lot of us here are able to handle the technical details. Who knows, if you explain the problem, an intelligent customer like me, FrankAZ, or Richard1980 might actually help to point you in the right direction. Two heads (or hundreds) are better than one.

[holidayboy]

The lack of responses from Ceton regarding this is bound to make customers feel upset and angry, as well as disappointed.

Everybody is of course free to make their feelings known in a polite and civil manner.

This is a forum for all Media Center related discussions.

At the end of the day though, this is not an official support forum for Ceton and employees could well be under instructions regarding what can and cannot be discussed here.

Nobody from Ceton (or any other company) is under any obligation to provide support here.

That's my little bit said, I'll bow out now

Have a great Easter everybody.

[barnabas1969]

Holidayboy, STC, and makryger: Do you think my post above (4/6/2012@12:11pm EDT) is out of line? I think I was very polite given the situation.

Unfortunately, Ceton doesn't have a forum for their customers... unlike Silicon Dust.

[STC]

Certainly not out of line, no. There are no big red caps shouting comments and you have structured a civil post. Your logic of having the right to post everywhere erkotz has posted to get his attention is ill-founded though, and that's where I would step in. I am after-all a moderator.

To attempt to put things into perspective;
I'm a new member to the forum. I click the new posts or active topics. The first five are all from you trying to get attention from another member. Some of them have big red shouting letters. My first impressions of the forum are not that favorable. I'm from Europe and I don't even know or want to know what an InfiniTV is.

[edit] We are going off topic so may I ask further discussion about forum conduct to continue on PM

-Back to the debate-

[grinchy]

I'm with Barnabus on this issue - he's been really patient (and cooperative with Ceton) through the months and unfortunately, we still don't have a resolution. He also makes a great point regarding him being out of warranty. I don't strike Ceton as being a super strict on warranty cutoffs, but definately a valid concern.

This and the reboot issue certainly have to be the two most prevalent (customer-facing) issues with Ceton at this point; reboot (IMO) being higher priority than the macroblocking. With 1.1.7.2, the reboot issue appears to be resolved; mind you, this took quite a few months on its own for a resolution.

Assuming the reboot issue is an old memory, Ceton (hopefully) can dedicate more resources focusing on this particular issue; it wouldn't surprise me if they tabled this issue UNTIL reboots were fixed. Fingers crossed they can turn something around in less time.

[barnabas1969]

Yeah, I understand, STC. I get your point about a new member, or one from somewhere other than North America. If only I could tell you all about my focus on "members". But if I did, I would reveal too much about my employer... and I'm not allowed to comment about my employer, with specific information, on a public forum such as this. I'm keenly aware of users from other countries... I'm married to an Eastern European woman. She makes sure that I understand the differences between the US and other countries... But you've already deleted those posts, so I'm not sure why we're talking about it here. My subject may have been off-topic in those threads, but my point was to get Ceton's attention. Now, this thread is going off-topic. This thread should not digress into a topic of forum etiquette. The topic of this thread, in as few words as possible, is: "Ceton: Fix the problem!" or, worst case... "Ceton: Give us a meaningful update about this problem! With a plan for moving forward!" or... how about: "Stop ignoring your customers!"

To put this in perspective... let me tell you a story about my employer in a way that is as generic as possible. I work for one of the world's largest financial software and data-services companies. I've been there for 15 years. We alternate between #1 and #2 in the world, depending on the metric. Your financial transactions (even in the UK, Canada, or as far away as Hong Kong) are probably processed by us in some form or another. Our motto is: "The client comes first." In my division, we've made more than 40% net profit every year that I've worked there, even during the "recession". We serve more than 100 financial institutions in my division. That's phenomenal money. Imagine owning a company that has a 42% (or better) return every year. I'd sign up for that in a heartbeat. If we had a problem that went on for six months... and we didn't fix it, people would lose their jobs. Especially if we ignored the client and didn't give them a sense that the problem was going to be fixed at some point in the future... and a reasonable expectation of a date.

The moral of the story is that if you make your customer happy, everything else will follow. Don't focus on being the best. Don't focus on being the first. Instead, focus on doing one thing: Make the customer happy. Riches will follow. Ceton doesn't seem to be following this one simple rule. Customers are unhappy. Some, like me, are bitching loudly in a public forum. And still, no response.

I think this thread will definitely get the attention of Ceton... but I won't hold my breath until they post a response. I'll be pleasantly surprised if they do. In fact, I'll be very happy if they do. I'll give them my time (and time is very valuable to me) to test their firmware/software and to send them diagnostic dumps, and do whatever I can to help them narrow down the problem. If, in fact, I am the very rare and unusual user who sees this problem every few minutes (I doubt that I'm so rare and unusual)... maybe I can actually help them narrow down the problem? Who knows, but it will never happen without Ceton's participation.