Adding Another InfiniTV USB to my HTPC

[newfiend]

@ Richard, since it's a fee for an "additional outlet" in my home.. What if I am using the same original (primary) outlet with a splitter? (which I am..).. So now I am paying an additional outlet fee for using a splitter off the (Primary) outlet? If so that's going to suck! .. I don't feel that is right of them to charge me an additional fee for that, especially since both Cetons are hooked to the same PC and are both fed by the same cable in the same room. Where is this additional outlet they are charging me for? An output on the splitter? Seems silly if you ask me..
To me an additional outlet would be in another room with another piece of coaxial cable hooked to another PC or STB .. But I am sure Comcast could give a rats ass what I think the definition of "Additional Outlet" is.. lol
I am going to contact them and save the log of the conversation and post the results here...
newfiend~
Sent from my WP7 using Board Express

[KHTPC75]

I definitely think they are breaking the law. The way I read the rules is if their "Package" includes 1 cable box and you supply your own equipment such as a tivo or intfinitv, then you pay the cablecard rental fee and you get a credit for bringing your own equipment. If you then want a second cable box you are charged extra to rent the box since it's not part of your "Package". It's an extra add-on to your package.

If you decide to add a third device that takes a cablecard, since it's not part of your package, you should only be paying for the cablecard and not for an additional outlet minus another byoe fee.

If you decide to return the second box and get a cablecard, you should also only be paying the cablecard fee.

If their "Package" included 2 cableboxes and you supply 2 cablecards and don't get the boxes, you should pay for the cablecards and get a credit for 2 cableboxes.

Time warner does it properly per the FCC rules.

[newfiend]

I got in an online chat with the Billing Dept for Comcast.
This is the conversation word for word. Names have been changed or deleted for security reasons. But I wanted to post this and get your thoughts.

analyst XXX (Comcast) has entered room

Comcast: Hello newfiend, Thank you for contacting Comcast Live Chat Support. My name is XXX. Please give me one moment to review your information.

newfiend: My Issue: I am curious about the additional outlet fee.

Comcast: Our goal is to provide you with a consistently superior customer experience that’s our guarantee.

Comcast: I understand that you have been billed for additional outlet fee and you would like to know as to why, correct?

newfiend: not yet, I have a few questions.

Comcast: Sure thing. Questions are always welcome. May I please know what about?

newfiend: we have a home theater PC running windows 7 Media Center. we have 2 Ceton cable card tuners in the HTPC, We recently added the 2nd ceton tuner and another cable card to the HTPC. (We originaly had one Ceton Tuner and one Cable card) My question is since both tuners are hooked to the HTPC and are fed by the primary outlet will I be charged the additional outlet fee?

newfiend: Or will we be only billed for the second cable card?

Comcast: I will be more than glad to answer all your queries, newfiend. I know how important it is that you have a clear idea so you will know how it affects your bill. I understand that you just want to have it clarified to have some peace of mind.

Comcast: You have reached the right department. I'm here for whatever questions or concerns you have. I'll do everything I can to resolve this for you today.

newfiend: ok

Comcast: The additional outlet fee refers to additional cable box.

Comcast: If instead of a box, the customer has opted to have a cablecard, yes, this is chargeable at a $ 7.45/mo rate.

Comcast: Additional outlet fee comes for $ 8.95/mo.

newfiend: Even If I am not using an Additional outlet, but just the same primary outlet as before?

Comcast: Yes, newfiend.

newfiend: I am curious if this is legal as it states here on the FCC website http://www.fcc.gov/guides/cablecard-know-your-rights

newfiend: •Use your own set-top box without extra charge. FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(5)(C). Your cable operator may charge you to lease a CableCARD or tuning adapter, but may not charge you an additional service fee for using your own digital-cable-ready television or set-top box.

Comcast: newfiend, let me ask you, do you have a cablecard with us>?

Comcast: If so, how many?

newfiend: yes 2 CC, on the same PC, on the same Primary outlet in the same room.

Comcast: Positive. The first cablecard is free. Second is chargeable at $ 7.45/mo.

Comcast: We are not charging for the equipment, but for the cable card.

Comcast: The outlet comes for $ 8.95/mo.

Comcast: May I please ask what fee have you incurred for outlet?

newfiend: Then why does it state here: http://customer.comcast.com/help-and-su ... cablecard/

newfiend: •Your first CableCARD is provided at no charge; if you need a second one for the same device, you’ll be charged $1.50/month.

newfiend: The second Cable card is for the same device,,,My HTPC.

newfiend: same room, same outlet hooked to the same piece of coaxial cable

Comcast: If that is the case, I will need to refer you to the local office so they can change the fee to $ 1.50

Comcast: You can find a list of local offices in your area by entering your address at: https://www.comcast.com/Localization/Lo ... ocal%20cen.

newfiend: Ok, Thank you I will have a look into the matter more at the link you provided.

Comcast: You are most welcome.

Comcast: Let's take a minute to review everything we've done for you today. We have discussed your outlet and cablecard fee and I have provided you the necessary information.

Comcast: I earnestly want to say thank your for your patience and understanding. Do you have any other questions or concerns today? I will be glad to assist you further.

newfiend: no. Thank You,


newfiend~

[choliscott]

I was looking at my bill & its listed as follows:

Comcast digital $81.99
Digital Additional $40.00 9Qty 5@$8 each (yes we still have 5 cable boxes, the wife doesn't like change. I need to "sabatoge" my previous DVR setup
Cable Card device $1.50 each $2.20
Customer Owned Equip Adjust -2.50
Customer Owned Equip Adjust -2.50

[richard1980]

The rule that you guys are referring to is not being quoted correctly. You are quoting the paraphrased version that is listed on the FCC's website. What is written on the FCC's website is irrelevant...it's not the law. Comcast is not required to abide by what is written on the FCC's website. The only thing they are required to do is abide by what is actually written into law. To know what is actually written into law, you can either read the law or you can just go to page 46 of the CableCARD ruling. Here is the actual wording from page 46 of the ruling:

No service fee shall be imposed on a subscriber for support of a subscriber-provided device that is not assessed on subscriber use of an operator provided device.

In other words, if Comcast charges an additional outlet fee to people with cable boxes, they are allowed to charge an additional outlet fee to people that opt for a CableCARD instead of a cable box. Therefore, Comcast is not doing anything wrong by charging an additional outlet fee to people that get a CableCARD instead of a cable box.

It's important to understand what an outlet is. An outlet is not a coax wall plate. It's the end connector on a piece of coax cable. If you have a wall plate, that's one outlet. If you connect a 2-way splitter to the wall plate, that one outlet becomes 2 outlets. Comcast doesn't charge a fee for outlets that aren't connected to anything (that would be very silly), so they define an outlet the same as I just did, with the condition that there is actually something connected to that outlet. If nothing is connected, there is no fee. But if something is connected, it becomes an additional outlet and they charge a fee. The additional outlet fee is technically a fee for allowing an additional piece of equipment to consume the cable signal. It doesn't matter what kind of equipment it is or who owns it. You are paying for the right to extend your cable TV service to an additional device. I'm not sure about all Comcast markets, but I know in some markets this additional outlet fee is actually a bundled fee. In addition to having the right to connect an additional piece of equipment, you also get a "free" cable box. It could therefore be argued that a portion of this additional outlet fee is actually a cable box lease fee. And in fact, it would be hard to argue that the entire additional outlet fee is not just a camouflaged cable box lease fee. That leads me into the 2nd part of this FCC rule:

For any bundled offer combining service and equipment into a single fee, including any bundled offer providing a discount for the purchase of multiple services, such provider shall make such offer available without discrimination to any customer that owns a navigation device, and shall further offer such customer a discount from such offer equal to an amount not less than the monthly rental fee reasonably allocable to the lease of the operator-supplied navigation device included with that offer. For purposes of this section, in determining what is “reasonably allocable,” the Commission will consider in its evaluation whether the allocation is consistent with one or more of the following factors: (i) an allocation determination approved by a local, state, or federal government entity; (ii) the monthly lease fee as stated on the cable system rate card for the navigation device when offered by the cable operator separately from a bundled offer; and (iii) the actual cost of the navigation device amortized over a period of no more than 60 months.

The following paragraph is a bit long, but I urge you to read the entire thing. You'll see why when you get to the end of the paragraph.

In markets where the additional outlet fee gets you a a "free" cable box, the additional outlet fee is a "bundled offer combining service and equipment into a single fee". Therefore, if you opt for a CableCARD instead of a cable box, they are required to give you a discount that is "equal to an amount not less than the monthly rental fee reasonably allocable to the lease of the operator-supplied navigation device included with that offer." That means the cable company has to come up with a discount amount that is "reasonably allocable to the lease of the operator-supplied navigation device". To determine what is considered "reasonably allocable", the rule lists three factors to consider. The first factor doesn't apply unless there is an agreement between the cable company and a government entity that stipulates how much the discount will be (for example, a the cable company and the City might have an agreement that gives everyone a $5 discount for using their own equipmpent). The second factor doesn't apply unless the rate cards lists an individual charge for the cable box rental (for example, if the rate cards says the cable box is $10 per month, this is the amount that you should get as a discount). The third factor applies in all other scenarios. However, there is a major flaw with the third factor. The third factor says to divide the actual cost of the cable box by a number less than or equal to 60, and that is the discount amount. However, there is another law that dictates the formula used to calculate the monthly lease fee for the cable box. That law requires dividing the cost of the cable box (plus some other fees) by 12 to come up with the monthly box lease fee. It is mathematically impossible to divide the cost of the box by 12 and any number greater than 12 and get the same number. As an example, consider a scenario where the cable company pays $120 for the cable box. Divide $120 by 12 to get the monthly lease fee....$10 per month. Divide $120 by any number from 13 to 60. It will always be less than $10. What's really bad is if you actually divide by 60....that's $2. Comcast can legally get away with charging your $10 for a cable box (that you don't have) and issuing you $2 credit because you have your own equipment. The end result is you pay $8 for a cable box that you don't have. AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT COMCAST IS MAKING YOU DO! More importantly, and what really upsets me is the fact that this is what the FCC blatantly gave the cable companies the authority to do this to customers! When the ruling first came out, I predicted this is exactly what would happen and I immediately filed a comment with the FCC. Unfortunately, they have not yet changed the rules...probably because I'm the only person that has pointed out the flaw (AFAIK). I have posted this several times both here and at WEC, but AFAIK nobody else has done anything about it. Hopefully now that this information is being passed on to people that are directly affected by it (by that I mean you are getting ripped off), maybe more people will file comments with the FCC.


I've given the "device" portion of the conversation some additional thought. I do not believe that 2 InfiniTVs in one computer is considered one device. Unlike a TiVo Series 3, 2 InfiniTVs in one computer requires 2 individual coax cables to be plugged into the computer. That's 2 outlets, and therefore, 2 devices. The same thing applies to the HDHRP-6. So in addition to what erkotz stated, I would have to say that the HDHRP-6 is actually 2 devices, not one device. A TiVo Series 3 only has one cable coax connector, so it is only requires one outlet to function. Therefore, I would call that "one device".

What's important to note is Comcast's fee for the CableCARD is on a per-device basis. The first CableCARD for any device is free. If you need another CableCARD for that same device, it will cost you $1.50. But if you need a CableCARD for a different device, as long as it's the first CableCARD for that specific device, their pricing policy says that it is free.

If the flaw in the FCC ruling was corrected so that CableCARD customers were only paying for the CableCARD rental, Comcast's current policy would mean that you could have as many individual devices as you want, and as long as no device requires more than one CableCARD, you should never be charged any fee for CableCARD rental. Additionally, you should get a full refund of the part of the additional access fee that is allocable to the cable box lease....not 20% of the cable box lease fee.

[newfiend]

Richard.. Thanks for the updated information.., What you posted totally makes sense. I think the exact same as you.. we're getting screwed. Guess there really isn't much we can do about it unless we started a huge petition, got a bunch of signatures and "fought the power".. (probably to no avail).
I love the fact that they get to charge me for a cable box I don't have.. What a rip off. So I guess I break the news to the wife that our bill is going up.. yay.

It's not a huge amount really a month, but If you think about all of us that have Ceton's and are using MC or anyone else that is using cableCARD how much $ Comcast is making off us using our own equipment.. It kinda makes ya sick. I don't think Its right or fair. There should be set fees for Cable Boxes and CableCARD rental.. and IMO CC should be much cheaper!

It reminds me of the movie Liar,Liar...Where Jim Carrey is complaining at the towing company about the scratch in his car and all he can do is complain, piss and moan like an impotent jerk and basically "take it up the tail pipe".. LOL
*Sigh* such is life..

On a side note.. I don't regret adding the additional tuners. Ceton USB is working great so far..
newfiend~

[richard1980]

Well the problem isn't that "the power" is against you....the FCC wants you to get a fair deal (they made that very clear in their ruling). But the rule that they wrote does not give the desired result. In other words, the FCC made a mistake in their logic. That mistake needs to be pointed out to them so they can correct it.

There is no need to start a petition or get any signatures. Everyone is free to file a public comment on the FCC's ECFS website. Comments for this issue should be filed under proceeding number 97-80 (Implementation of Section 304 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996). Note that comments filed in this manner are public record.

I can assure you that if enough consumers complain about this, the FCC will re-visit this issue and consider a different rule to get the desired result they were seeking in the first place. If people don't complain about the issue, the FCC is not going to be aware that there is a problem, and thus they may never re-visit the issue or correct the rule.