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garyan2

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#21

Post by garyan2 » Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:22 pm

I just did an interesting experiment. I did a clean start of WMC without importing updated transponders or default satellites... just as WMC would have been setup without epg123. I then did a TV Setup with the old satellite data, did an object store recovery, and then tried TV Setup again and it crashed in the same manner. Was this something known about before epg123 even existed? It looks like this may be a quirk with WMC that I never heard of.
- Gary
Keeping WMC alive beyond January 2020. https://garyan2.github.io

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#22

Post by RichardH » Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:04 am

garyan2 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:22 pm ...Was this something known about before epg123 even existed?
Well, not something I knew about, but probably true.
For me the pieces are starting to fit into place, but I may still be catching up with comments you made earlier.
Here is what I think I know.
A clean TV Signal Setup, based on whatever DefaultSatellites.mxf (custom or embedded) builds the DvbsDataSets collection in the store.
On database backup or rebuild, lineup.mxf or epg123.mxf do not include DvbsDataSets, but do include the 'underlyihg' DvbsSatellites etc.
On restoring or after a rebuild, Live TV works, but TV Signal Setup will fail because DvbsDataSets is empty.
The missing information is conveniently restored by reloading DefaultSatellites.mxf. TV Signal Setup then works again.

For reference, here is a nonverbose shallow dump of DvbsDataSets from my system when it is populated:

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" standalone="no"?>
<MXF>
  <Assembly
    name="mcepg"
    version="6.1.0.0"
    cultureInfo=""
    publicKey="0024000004800000940000000602000000240000525341310004000001000100B5FC90E7027F67871E773A8FDE8938C81DD402BA65B9201D60593E96C492651E889CC13F1415EBB53FAC1131AE0BD333C5EE6021672D9718EA31A8AEBD0DA0072F25D87DBA6FC90FFD598ED4DA35E44C398C454307E8E33B8426143DAEC9F596836F97C8F74750E5975C64E2189F45DEF46B2A2B1247ADC3652BF5C308055DA9">
    <NameSpace
      name="Microsoft.MediaCenter.Satellites">
      <Type
        name="DvbsDataSet" />
      <Type
        name="DvbsSatellite" />
      <Type
        name="DvbsRegion" />
      <Type
        name="DvbsHeadend" />
    </NameSpace>
  </Assembly>
  <Assembly
    name="mcstore"
    version="6.1.0.0"
    cultureInfo=""
    publicKey="0024000004800000940000000602000000240000525341310004000001000100B5FC90E7027F67871E773A8FDE8938C81DD402BA65B9201D60593E96C492651E889CC13F1415EBB53FAC1131AE0BD333C5EE6021672D9718EA31A8AEBD0DA0072F25D87DBA6FC90FFD598ED4DA35E44C398C454307E8E33B8426143DAEC9F596836F97C8F74750E5975C64E2189F45DEF46B2A2B1247ADC3652BF5C308055DA9">
    <NameSpace
      name="Microsoft.MediaCenter.Store">
      <Type
        name="Provider" />
      <Type
        name="UId"
        parentFieldName="target" />
    </NameSpace>
  </Assembly>
  <DvbsDataSet
    uid="!DvbsDataSet"
    _frequencyTolerance="10"
    _symbolRateTolerance="1500"
    _minimumSearchMatches="3"
    _dataSetRevision="90">
    <_allSatellites>
      <DvbsSatellite
        uid="!DvbsDataSet!DvbsSatellite[282]" />
    </_allSatellites>
    <_allRegions>
      <DvbsRegion
        uid="!DvbsDataSet!DvbsRegion[GB]" />
    </_allRegions>
    <_allHeadends>
      <DvbsHeadend
        uid="!DvbsDataSet!DvbsHeadend[250282]" />
    </_allHeadends>
  </DvbsDataSet>
</MXF>
The DvbsDataSet attributes are probably required during TV Signal Setup, hence the crash when they are not available.

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#23

Post by technodevotee » Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:07 am

Ever since I started using WMC, I've had weird things happen when setting up using satellite tuners that I've never experienced with terrestrial tuners.

hangs, crashes, you name it - so It is probably bugs in the original code and nothing to do with EPG123

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#24

Post by garyan2 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:51 pm

When performing setup, WMC will look in the database for the UID "!DvbsDataSet". If it doesn't exist, it will import the DefaultSatellites.mxf file from the ehres.dll file. When the dataset expires, or is removed from the database, I believe the UID still remains even though the data is no longer there. So when TV Setup is performed again, the UID still exists and it does not import the mxf file so it tries to proceed with a NULL dataset causing the crash. I might try to do something about that to avoid the crash, but that's for the future.

I've released 1.7.0.11 as a pre-release with the ability to create a custom DefaultSatellites.mxf file based on your current database contents. The [Transponders] button has changed to [Satellites] to present a new form for all things related to satellite TV setup.
- Gary
Keeping WMC alive beyond January 2020. https://garyan2.github.io

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#25

Post by RichardH » Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:05 pm

garyan2 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:51 pm When performing setup, WMC will look in the database for the UID "!DvbsDataSet". If it doesn't exist, it will import the DefaultSatellites.mxf file from the ehres.dll file. When the dataset expires, or is removed from the database, I believe the UID still remains even though the data is no longer there. So when TV Setup is performed again, the UID still exists and it does not import the mxf file so it tries to proceed with a NULL dataset causing the crash. I might try to do something about that to avoid the crash, but that's for the future.
That is consistent with what I thought. I have confirmed that the lineup.mxf/epg123.mxf strangely omit DvbsDataSets even though it is present in the store, which is why it is missing after restore. I also found 2 more collections that are omitted = DvbsRegions and DvbsFootprints. I was able to export the missing information from the store quite simply by executing the following, where listObj is a list of the three collections:

Code: Select all

MxfExporter.Export(store, writer, false, false, false, listObj, new List<ExportFilter>());
giving the following rather modest file:

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" standalone="no"?>
<MXF>
  <Assembly
    name="mcepg"
    version="6.1.0.0"
    cultureInfo=""
    publicKey="0024000004800000940000000602000000240000525341310004000001000100B5FC90E7027F67871E773A8FDE8938C81DD402BA65B9201D60593E96C492651E889CC13F1415EBB53FAC1131AE0BD333C5EE6021672D9718EA31A8AEBD0DA0072F25D87DBA6FC90FFD598ED4DA35E44C398C454307E8E33B8426143DAEC9F596836F97C8F74750E5975C64E2189F45DEF46B2A2B1247ADC3652BF5C308055DA9">
    <NameSpace
      name="Microsoft.MediaCenter.Satellites">
      <Type
        name="DvbsRegion" />
      <Type
        name="DvbsFootprint" />
      <Type
        name="DvbsDataSet" />
      <Type
        name="DvbsSatellite" />
      <Type
        name="DvbsHeadend" />
    </NameSpace>
  </Assembly>
  <Assembly
    name="mcstore"
    version="6.1.0.0"
    cultureInfo=""
    publicKey="0024000004800000940000000602000000240000525341310004000001000100B5FC90E7027F67871E773A8FDE8938C81DD402BA65B9201D60593E96C492651E889CC13F1415EBB53FAC1131AE0BD333C5EE6021672D9718EA31A8AEBD0DA0072F25D87DBA6FC90FFD598ED4DA35E44C398C454307E8E33B8426143DAEC9F596836F97C8F74750E5975C64E2189F45DEF46B2A2B1247ADC3652BF5C308055DA9">
    <NameSpace
      name="Microsoft.MediaCenter.Store">
      <Type
        name="Provider" />
      <Type
        name="UId"
        parentFieldName="target" />
    </NameSpace>
  </Assembly>
  <DvbsRegion
    uid="!DvbsDataSet!DvbsRegion[GB]"
    _isoCode="GB">
    <_footprints>
      <DvbsFootprint
        uid="!DvbsDataSet!DvbsFootprint[GB:282]"
        _satellite="!DvbsDataSet!DvbsSatellite[282]">
        <headends>
          <DvbsHeadend
            uid="!DvbsDataSet!DvbsHeadend[250282]" />
        </headends>
      </DvbsFootprint>
    </_footprints>
  </DvbsRegion>
  <DvbsDataSet
    uid="!DvbsDataSet"
    _frequencyTolerance="10"
    _symbolRateTolerance="1500"
    _minimumSearchMatches="3"
    _dataSetRevision="90">
    <_allSatellites>
      <DvbsSatellite
        uid="!DvbsDataSet!DvbsSatellite[282]" />
    </_allSatellites>
    <_allRegions>
      <DvbsRegion
        idref="!DvbsDataSet!DvbsRegion[GB]" />
    </_allRegions>
    <_allHeadends>
      <DvbsHeadend
        uid="!DvbsDataSet!DvbsHeadend[250282]" />
    </_allHeadends>
  </DvbsDataSet>
</MXF>
I was then able to perform a database rebuild, loading the above just before epg123.mxf. The store was then complete, and I could perform a TV Setup normally (no crash).

Otherwise, I would say this is low priority. But the above turned out to be simpler than I was expecting, and could possibly be incorporated into the backup/restore and rebuild code, so I hope you can do somethihng with it. That would have the advantage that restore is based entirely on data from the store, which seems more robust than bringing in DefaultSatellites.mxf.
garyan2 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:51 pm I've released 1.7.0.11
Looking forward to trying that.

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#26

Post by garyan2 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:47 pm

Not sure I follow the reasoning of importing the DvbsDataSet for the Restore/Rebuild. The whole purpose of those actions is so the user does not have to perform a TV Setup again. Since we have seen that the DvbsDataSet will get cleaned out at some point, all it does is buy you some time before a TV Setup will crash.

I may be able to keep the dataset from being cleaned out, but it will take some time to verify. Currently, the dataset is flagged as eligible to be removed during garbage cleanup. If I change that flag then it may persist. I just need to do it smartly and at the right time.
- Gary
Keeping WMC alive beyond January 2020. https://garyan2.github.io

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#27

Post by RichardH » Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:40 am

garyan2 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:51 pm I've released 1.7.0.11
Just pressed the Satellites button then quickly ran through Client Setup. Worked flawlessly. Brilliant.
The only possibly significant difference between the new mxf and my own is that I take the precaution to set the _isEncryptedValid attribute to false for all services that my scanner finds to be unencrypted, as the values of the flags in the stream have been reported to be unreliable for some satellites. However, this is unlikely to be an issue, since the information you scrape from KingOfSat can be assumed to be reliable. Otherwise this could be an additional option, I suppose.
garyan2 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:47 pm I may be able to keep the dataset from being cleaned out, but it will take some time to verify.
For me, this release means the discussion about GC and DvbsDataSet has just gone from low priority to irrelevant. Please don't waste any time on it on my account.

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#28

Post by RichardH » Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:20 pm

Ignore the above comment after the word Brilliant. I now understand the Update button updates satellites and transponders, not services, based on KingOfSat. What I tested was the Create button, which does everything I need flawlessly, but has nothing to do with KingOfSat.

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#29

Post by garyan2 » Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:29 pm

RichardH wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:40 amThe only possibly significant difference between the new mxf and my own is that I take the precaution to set the _isEncryptedValid attribute to false for all services that my scanner finds to be unencrypted, as the values of the flags in the stream have been reported to be unreliable for some satellites.
If anyone finds that the isEncrypted value is not correct, please let me know. Looking at @technodevotee's backup file, the scanned channels did not set the encrypted flag either but instead flagged the channels as IsSuggestedBlocked. I bounced those channels against KingOfSat and saw they were encrypted so I translated the IsSuggestedBlocked to be an encrypted channel. If that is not reliable then I'll have to address them a different way.
- Gary
Keeping WMC alive beyond January 2020. https://garyan2.github.io

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#30

Post by cmal » Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:29 am

I had yesterday the opportunity to try the new version 11 while setting up a new HTPC with a friend (Win10x64 and MediaCenter 8.8.5; PlayReady is installed);
I used the DefaultSatellites.mxf created on my PC (~50 channels; 2/3 FTA; 1/3 encrypted);
we are both subscribed to the same pay-TV/encrypted services...
in both our systems the folder 'C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\ehome\Packages\DVBSTuning' does not exist, so we ceated one and put the mxf there;
after the "full transponder scan" we found ~140 channels (which is still much better than ~1300 if you perform a regular full scan on Astra 19.2);
the problem is, Mediacenter can not decrypt the payTV ("Srambled");
since I'm unsure what the problem might be, I would like to ask whether anybody managed to setup encrypted Sat with the DefaultDatelites.mxf method? the sat-receiver looks ok and shows the CAM and smartcard as it should;
(my own Win10-PC does not have this problems but was not setup with the new method and the second PC is on Win7)

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#31

Post by RichardH » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:40 am

cmal wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:29 am 'C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\ehome\Packages\DVBSTuning' does not exist, so ...
I only use FTA channels, so can't be sure if the following helps. It worked for me. The step you mentioned was unnecessary, so I can't help wondering if you missed something out too.
Assuming you already have everything set up the way you want in EPG123 Client, with your 50 channels, and it all works (including your encrypted channels), you should be able to start from there. The first thing I did at that point was press Satellites then Create. In your case you would want to check 'Include Encrypted'. This puts the custom DefaultSatellites.mxf in the right place.
The easiest way I found to go from there is to close the Satellites window and continue with Client Setup, allowing it to automatically proceed to the next step.
At the step when WMC opens, you have to perform TV Setup. This is where you would enter the information about your receiver (Set Top Box). If it worked before and you provide the same settings it should still work. I suspect this is where it went wrong for you.

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#32

Post by RichardH » Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:14 pm

cmal wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:29 am I used the DefaultSatellites.mxf created on my PC (~50 channels; 2/3 FTA; 1/3 encrypted);
To clarify my comment above, I should add that when you Create a custom DefaultSatellites.mxf in the Satellites window, you can find it in the ...\satellites folder. Before Client Setup on the second HTPC, you should be able to simply copy that custom DefaultSatellites.mxf to the same folder (not ...\Packages\DvbsTuning), since you want the same lineup there. The custom DefaultSatellites.mxf will already have channels, so there should be no need to do a satellite scan on the second PC during TV Setup. It would be interesting to know if that works.

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#33

Post by cmal » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:32 pm

ok, looks like false alarm; after some fiddling with the sat receiver driver it worked; so in principal this seems to work nicely !
still, I'm confused about the instruction in post 1 to copy the DefaultSatellites.mxf into the 'C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\ehome\Packages\DVBSTuning' folder...
is it not necessary after all?

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#34

Post by technodevotee » Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:10 am

I asked about that and Gary said (in post 7) it has no effect.

It was early days and I assume that EPG123 now imports the updated information into the database when the satellite option is used as you can see the satellite designations have changed when you run setup TV signal.

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#35

Post by cmal » Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:26 pm

two items to report (version 11):
- today epg123.exe did not show the lineup... it logs in and the lineup is selected, but still the right window remains empty;

- maybe a known/old issue but I somewhat forgot: Mediacenter doesn't like it if third party tools push around the channels ... in history there was a tool named wuselsort (doesn't work anymore) which allowed to select/deselect channels and move them to a new position and renumber the channels... that worked nicely but the catch was that recording didn't work anymore; one could push the red button but "nothing happened"; it turned out that after using this tool one needs to go to mediacenter and deselect all (affected) channels, safe the setting and then again select them; once this was done all the "not working" recordings pops up;
the same seems to be true for the setup with the DefaultSatellites method;

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#36

Post by RichardH » Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:17 pm

cmal wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:26 pm epg123.exe did not show the lineup
Same here. Last succesful update 10 hrs ago. epg123.exe now seems unhappy with something in the data coming in from SD. Likely unrelated to using a custom mxf, though.

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#37

Post by RichardH » Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:29 pm

I see that the above is the subject of the latest 'bug report'. (Is not mxf related.)

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#38

Post by garyan2 » Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:22 am

cmal wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:26 pm- maybe a known/old issue but I somewhat forgot: Mediacenter doesn't like it if third party tools push around the channels ... in history there was a tool named wuselsort (doesn't work anymore) which allowed to select/deselect channels and move them to a new position and renumber the channels... that worked nicely but the catch was that recording didn't work anymore; one could push the red button but "nothing happened"; it turned out that after using this tool one needs to go to mediacenter and deselect all (affected) channels, safe the setting and then again select them; once this was done all the "not working" recordings pops up;
the same seems to be true for the setup with the DefaultSatellites method;
I might not understand what you are describing completely, but I have noticed that if a channel is recommended to be blocked by WMC, either due to being flagged as encrypted or just poor reception, the tuners of the merged channel are disabled. This will result in a channel being able to be watched, but since the tuners are unselected, you can't record anything. In WMC, if you disable the channel, save, then enable the channel and save, WMC will enable all the tuners in the merged channel regardless of encrypted/blocked status and allowing you to record then.

EPG123, right now, does not duplicate that behavior for the tuners. I did briefly a couple versions ago, but I disabled it for further evaluation once I saw how WMC handles DVBT.
- Gary
Keeping WMC alive beyond January 2020. https://garyan2.github.io

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#39

Post by cmal » Thu Dec 16, 2021 6:31 pm

garyan2 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:22 am ...I have noticed that if a channel is recommended to be blocked by WMC, either due to being flagged as encrypted or just poor reception, the tuners of the merged channel are disabled. This will result in a channel being able to be watched, but since the tuners are unselected, you can't record anything. In WMC, if you disable the channel, save, then enable the channel and save, WMC will enable all the tuners in the merged channel regardless of encrypted/blocked status and allowing you to record then.
...
in my case it can only be the "encrypted" part since the signal is full scale...
anyways, if I do a regular full transponder scan (without customized transponder lists and third-party-sorting), I did not observe this behavior;
on the other hand, that was quiet some time ago as I want to avoid the 1300 channels, so I always do some tweeking...

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#40

Post by RichardH » Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:10 am

garyan2 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:22 am if a channel is ... flagged as encrypted ... the tuners of the merged channel ... disabled
This could be relevant, I don't know. There was a reason I did the following when I made my own custom mxfs (now I don't have to, of course):
RichardH wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:40 am The only possibly significant difference between the new mxf and my own is that I take the precaution to set the _isEncryptedValid attribute to false for all services that ...
The only user-visible effect in WMC is that the 'padlock' symbol does not appear (possibly incorrectly) in the setting for a channel, saving the user the (considerable) effort of manually removing it through WMC settings.
I can't test this because I don't decrypt DVB-S myself, and I too do not fully understand the scenario cmal describes. But I do decrypt DVB-C, and based on that I speculate that clearing _isEncryptedValid has no adverse functional effect, but might stop WMC 'helpfuly' disabling tuners, hiding channels, preventing recording, etc.
External to WMC you have hardware (receiver, set top box, card reader), or equivalent software, to handle decryption itself, so my guess would be that it is unaffected.

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