EMMs Going to Zero

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netw0rks

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EMMs Going to Zero

#1

Post by netw0rks » Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:03 pm

Can anyone help me understand EMMs a little better? I do know what they are, and what they do. I am not clear on why I need > 40 though. Seems like a random number to me, but if that's the minimum, then so be it.

My main problem is that after I lose power on the Ceton, my EMMs go to zero. After power is restored and the TA and the CC are all in sync again, I can tune channels, but not reliably. I check EMMs processed and they are 0. I can of course call TWC and ask them to send more "hits" down the line. The EMMs go up rapidly, to well above 40 and tuning becomes much more reliable. Again, I understand that I need EMMs to be able to watch copy protected content, this is how Conditional Access works, but why:

- can I watch most channels with zero EMMs?

- do I never get any new EMMs unless a call is placed and new "hits" requested?

Obviously, the next time I go out of town, I am going to get a phone call from my angry wife about why her recordings failed because the show was unavailalbe. Yes, I can put this on a UPS, but really? Should I have to invest in a UPS to keep my subscription to cable? :roll: It seems that TWC isn't sending down the EMMs on a regular interval like they're supposed to.

Sorry to sound rant"ish" but this is about the only thing keeping from having a perfectly functioning WMC 6 tuner solution! :wtf:

JohnW248

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#2

Post by JohnW248 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:46 pm

The Emm counter gets reset when you reboot your computer and once the cableCARD has been paired the number count is really irrelevant. The number is totally random and sent out by a cable company at various times and is just an indication that the cable company has contacted and verified your card.

As long as you can get the full set of channels you are subscribed, there is no concern. You can always call in and ask the cableCARD people to send you some hits which will verify your card and increment the EMMS. For example:
CA Time:
Fri Jan 10 2014, 9:45:00 PM GMT
Time GBAM: 77880
App GBAM: 0
Purchase GBAM: 0
EMMs Processed: 8
Another tuner that was restarted two days ago
CA Time:
Fri Jan 10 2014, 9:45:00 PM GMT
Time GBAM: 7760
App GBAM: 0
Purchase GBAM: 0
EMMs Processed: 0

Everything is working and the longer a tuner is up the larger the number will be.

John

netw0rks

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#3

Post by netw0rks » Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:23 pm

Thanks for the reply John. I agree that the number seems irrelevant to the number of channels I "get". Even at zero, I seem to get most of them. The problem I was seeing yesterday (many channels saying "Subscription required" was not related to the EMM count. After a lot of futzing (a technical term) around, I got everything to be rock solid even with EMMs at 0. Which validates your point...

What seemed to make things better was unplugging everything and then bringing up in the order of TA, let TA get solid light, plug in Ceton, wait 5, then boot WMC.

The most frustrating thing is the fact that there is no rock solid information from the cable company on exactly what works, and which order. Most of the techs just give you a line of crap about needing more hits, reboot this, reboot that, "we don't deal with this a lot", etc. I get it, they really don't have to deal with this a lot, but they should know how...grr.

Anyhoo, going to give a new build of Win7 a go in a new case that will sit in the media cabinet and meet the WAF. Hopefully I can get everything working flawlessly. I may even document my build in my own thread somewhere...even if to just keep my own sanity for troubleshooting!

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NCoastTweaker

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#4

Post by NCoastTweaker » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:03 pm

I seen your post. I have an infinitv 4 pcie model and have the exact same concern about EMM's. Once every couple of months I have to contact the cable co to 'ping' the cablecard..

Symptoms:
Get the dreaded no subscription avail msg. I've seen this happen right in the middle of a broadcast I was watching. When this happens, I typically get some cablecard channels to work, but most will not. In each instance, the cablecard folks direct me to the ceton diagnostic, have me check the cablecard EMM count, ping it till it get above 39 and presto... Broadcasts start working again.. till next time..

Any time power is interrupted to the pc / cablecard the EMMs go back to zero and stay there. The cable card guys say this is a 'bug' with the ceton. (I've not contacted Ceton support about it) I'm sure Ceton guys would say its a bug with the cablecard or Tuner switch.

I've been living with this since I've owned it. (I had an early build of ITV4 usb from 4/11 thru 4/12) had non stop issues with it dropping off the internal network. I was told (and believed) that it was a flaw in my usb hardware / cabling. Since I was using a six core amd thuban cpu / hd 6950 / msi gd70 mobo, I was in the mood to upgrade anyway, so I built two intel based z77 systems to use as a control to compare the ceton usb device performance between my 'flawed' build and the new intel builds.

I won't bore you with the gory details, but after a full year of working with ceton support, cablecard support, I eventually gave up.
Ran endless diagnostics, wireshark traces etc across various amd driver levels, Clean windows installs, fully updated windows 7 installs, on intel and amd chipsets... no change in symtopms.. usb ceton would drop every 3-5 days... A power cycle would sometimes solve it, other times the tuning adapter would need it.. in other cases the emms would need to be incremented etc..

About a week before the 1 yr anniversary of purchasing the usb ITV4, I requested a pcie replacement. (Ceton stepped up and did the swap - kudos to them)

Now I still have occasional issues, but only once every few months, and its only with the EMM being zero.

here are the drivers etc
Diag_disp.jpg
CETON driver fw version
I run it on an asrock extreme4, i3-3225 dual core cpu w/ integrated igpu 24/7 no sleep. Use xbox (kids room) and an old linksys dmr 2200 media extender w/ old Linksys wrt54g router and cheop netgear 8 port gb switch.

It works ok, but its only reliable for about 2-3 months at a time. I think if I just ran extenders it would be more stable over time.

I would love to try out the echos, but I cannot justify purchasing one at the current prices.. (needs to be around 99 bucks for me to feel compelled to purchase one.. other wise, I'll continue buying Linksys media extenders on the used market for 75-100 bucks.. (and those units at least have wireless capabilities and a dvd player in them)

As long as I see the cablecard folks pointing fingers at Ceton, and vice versa in regard to the EMM's remaining at zero, I'll keep my expectations low for a fix anytime soon. Plus the symptoms are not consistent in regard to the EMMS needing to be above 39.. right now I've been watching the infinitv for the last several days without any issues.. and emms are zero.. so.. makes me skeptical to trust that as a root cause of the subscription unavail issue...

Tuning adapters:
I have one cisco sta1520 Tuning adapter in this setup and it has weird behavior too. I've seen it drop off but yet that green light is solid as a rock (even thou the unit is on its back according to ceton diag)

makes me confused as to if the diag is malfunctioning or the TA or both. (overall that's been my experience with anything controlled thru a Windows OS. there always seems to be quirk.. even the browsers suffer from it)

Conclusion:
Rarely will this work without an occasional fluke.. every day is a gift! :lol: Have realistic expectations. For me, if I only have to screw around with this once every month or two.. that's ok. It really just boils down to your tolerance. Some folks want zero issues.. (ironically those are the folks investing a lot of time and money.)

For me, perfection does not exist. So I shoot for 'good enough'.

JohnW248

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#5

Post by JohnW248 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:22 pm

NCoastTweaker wrote:I seen your post. I have an infinitv 4 pcie model and have the exact same concern about EMM's. Once every couple of months I have to contact the cable co to 'ping' the cablecard..

Symptoms:
Get the dreaded no subscription avail msg. I've seen this happen right in the middle of a broadcast I was watching. When this happens, I typically get some cablecard channels to work, but most will not. In each instance, the cablecard folks direct me to the ceton diagnostic, have me check the cablecard EMM count, ping it till it get above 39 and presto... Broadcasts start working again.. till next time..

Any time power is interrupted to the PC / cablecard the EMMs go back to zero and stay there. The cable card guys say this is a 'bug' with the ceton. (I've not contacted Ceton support about it) I'm sure Ceton guys would say its a bug with the cablecard or Tuner switch.
The Entitlement Messages going to zero is not a "bug" at all, the register is just cleared with a power cycle. The headend will send out EMMs at random and you'll receive them over a period of a few days to a week. Of far more importance is that the OOB signal is locked and you have a channel map received.

As for receiving the "subscription required" during a broadcast, there is a problem (which Cisco knows about) that occurs with an authorization timing error. If you are on a Cisco headend whether you have SDV or not, this can occur on TWC systems (and maybe others) using Ceton tuners.

You can easily check this. Go to the WebGui for the ceton tuner and click on cableCARD, then click on the link in the middle of the page Cisco CableCARD CP Info, when that opens click on page two. You should see:

Cisco CableCARD(tm)
Copy Protection Info Page 2

Refresh Status: OK
Refresh count: 207
N_Host timeouts: 0
Sync Cnf timeouts: 1 = this denotes an error last night that hit when four programs were being recorded. This problem lasts for less than a minute.
CP-CA Control bits: 0x00

With luck you registers for N_Host and Sync Cnf should both be zero. If you see any numbers there at all, each increment indicates and error which caused a Subscription Required error, a partial recording in recorded tv history and an annoyance. Both Cisco & Ceton are aware of the problem but so far it hasn't been address in any of the Cisco FW updates for their cableCARDs or any headend software. The Copy Protection signal is refreshed every 600 seconds which is another reason that the OOB signal must be locked and in a good range.

This might not be the cause of your issue. If you're on a Moto headend, then you likely have a different problem. If you're on TWC and call the cableCARD help desk in New York, they also know about this problem.

RyC

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#6

Post by RyC » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:53 pm

The "Subscription Required" message during shows also happens on Charter with Cisco.

JohnW248

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#7

Post by JohnW248 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:14 pm

RyC wrote:The "Subscription Required" message during shows also happens on Charter with Cisco.
Interesting, then it is a Cisco/Ceton issue. The problem doesn't happen with Tivo or SD Prime tuners.

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NCoastTweaker

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#8

Post by NCoastTweaker » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:28 pm

JohnW248 wrote:The Entitlement Messages going to zero is not a "bug" at all, the register is just cleared with a power cycle. The headend will send out EMMs at random and you'll receive them over a period of a few days to a week.
John, I've tested this off and on ever since your post. The EMM's NEVER increment on my pc after a reboot on their own. I Must contact cablecard support to ping it and get the emms to increment manually.

I disagree with your reply based on direct experience with my equipment.
I am still convinced this is a BUG. Otherwise I would see the emms increment over the next few days or weeks... but they don't.. they never had, and they never will. PERIOD!

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